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I'll throw in here.
I love rogues and roguey sorts. I am often drawn to those classes due to their fun flavor, and because I like the RP associated with them.
That said, I have to agree that in most games I've played, from level 1 to level 20, rogues are way behind the curve in combat performance unless it's a rogue multiclass with a synergetic class. Rogues and rangers work well, for example, as do rogues and "finesse"-built fighters. This is especially true in Pathfinder, as one of the big advantages of rogues is their large list of class skills...which can be gained for a 1 level dip in Pathfinder.
Pathfinder did improve rogues, especially in early levels. It's possible (even mandatory) to get Weapon Finesse at 2nd level now, meaning you only have to get through one level of pain, rather than 2 levels as in 3.5e. The increased HP help with this. The consolidated skill list and reframing of Disable Device as a Dex skill help with this. And Rogue Talents really help push rogues forward as secondary melee/scouts.
It's not until past level 10 or so that I think rogues once again are supplanted by spellcasters. I don't blame this on Pathfinder in particular. High level spells are just...pretty overwhelming. There are very few situations that can't be solved with sufficient damage points of energy. Non-combat situations are usually solveable with a judicious Charm or Dominate. The few times one might need a rogue (say, to climb a tower and sneak into a lord's bedroom to steal a document) can be done more easily via spells (fly up, invisible, dimension door in, use Locate Object and Silence, then dimension door out...with Silent spell or a rod of metamagic).
This leaves rogues as...the untrappers, really, since there are other ways to scout by those levels too. And while everyone likes untrapping, is that really enough to justify a whole other party member?
*shrug*
I dunno. Like I said, I like rogues. I'm just frustrated with how hard it is to make them "useful" to a group of characters. Especially high level ones.
Nice to see some honesty about how effective rogues are as combatants at higher level.
I'm not complaining because I hate rogues. I'm complaining because I like the class. Rogues are conceptually one of the more interesting classes in the game.
I'd like to see some of the old sacred cows about rogues thrown out and the class given the same design treatment as Paladins, Rangers, Monks, and Bards got. The designers seem like they really sat down with those classes and did them up beautifully.
I remember the 3E complaints that the Paladin wasn't that interesting beyond lvl 3. Smite Evil was far too limited. Most people made Paladin fighters because of it. Now the Paladin is unbelievably awesome for playing an evil-killing divine knight that can survive about anything.
The Ranger used to be viewed as too lacking in abilities. It didn't have the feel of a ranger. 3.5 truly made the ranger into a very interesting class that gave you the feel of a light fighting wilderness wanderer that could track better than any class in the game.
The fighter used to be boring. Almost everyone multi-classed to get specialization or took a Prc to make the class interesting. Now the single-class fighter is an interesting class with all sorts of options for creating a powerful fighting style.
The Monk was nice defensively, but not much offensively. And it often didn't feel like you were truly a master of the martial arts. Now you can create monks with unique fighting styles and really feel like you are a master of hand to hand. I made a great grappling monk that was fun as all get up. He was a bad to the bone grappler that could take out about anyone with his awsome grappling skills. Monks built around special maneuvers can really do some neat stuff in a fight that makes you feel like a martial artist.
Bard is one of the most effective support classes in the game if you like that style of play. If you enjoy playing a jack of all trades who always has the answer to how to defeat an enemy or likes to provide the entire group with a very effective power boost, you play a bard.
Then you come to the rogue. The last class that still doesn't get enough love. Not great in combat. Their sole claim to fame is finding traps and sneak attacking. And as great as sneak attack looks on paper, it starts to pale after level 10 or so when the melees can Power Attack and still hit as effectively as you sneak attacking with a flank.
Even stealth-wise the Ranger is the ultimate stealth monkey. Choose underground and forest as your favored terrains and you cover most adventures. The monk and anyone with the stealth skill is on par with a rogue for stealth.
The Inquisitor, Monk, and ranger are all better at Perception. The Inq and Monk because they focus on wisdom. The ranger because of favored terrain and favored enemy.
The rogue gets a raw deal on saves for nothing special in ability other than trapfinding. I hope James Jacobs and his crew finally give the rogue the same treatment they gave the other classes. Really sit down and build a very appealing rogue from 1 to 20, throwing out past sacred cows like one good save or medium BAB, and build a rogue that can do what he is intended to do and still throw down hard in combat without needing his party members to set him up all the time.
Maybe lower the sneak attack damage, but make sneak attack something the rogue can use all the time and seems more like a dirty fighting style with options than an attack he can do only when his party members set him up in advantageous position. Rogue is the only class with such a limitation on their fighting ability. It shouldn't be that way. A rogue should be able to engage an opponent alone like any other class and hold their own with their dirty fighting style.
Make us a rogue worthy of playing 1-20 without feeling like we're missing out by not playing another class or that we're only skill-monkeys.
)) for higher levels to give the rogue a new daily resource to spend on accomplishing epic level skill checks. I have the basic system outline figured out in my head, could post it if people want, just needs fine tuning.
