Rogue with telling blow

[Kmart Kommando]

The second case would be a cleric/rogue/skullclan hunter, with the Razing strike feat.

They flanked the undead target, so they get sneak attack from divine strike, and they burn a divine spell with Razing strike which does (1d6/spell level) + (your sneak attack dice) per hit for either 1 round or until the end of your turn, not sure how that part is worded without checking, but it is quite similar to Arcane strike but with less possible targets (consructs for arcane spell burned and undead for divine spell burned).

 

[glass]

The second case would be a cleric/rogue/skullclan hunter, with the Razing strike feat.

So show that they get to add the damage twice and you will have made your point. Just saying that they do gets you no further than it did with the original case.


glass.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

So show that they get to add the damage twice and you will have made your point. Just saying that they do gets you no further than it did with the original case.


glass.

Quote the whole post, it's right there.

 

[Shellman]

Sneak Attack damage is never multiplied. It is only applied once per strike.

Telling Blow simply allows a Rogue to apply sneak attack damage in situations where the Rogue is not flanking a target or the target is not denied its dex mod to AC. The target must still be subject to critical hits.

 

[Stone Dog]

Quote the whole post, it's right there.

No it isn't. Divine strike lets you use your sneak attack dice against undead. Razing Strike lets you add a number of dice to your sneak attack equal to the level of the spell slot burned. Nothing lets you use your sneak attack dice more than once per given attack unless it specifically says that it does. Telling Blow is not specific.

Or do you think that it allows SA dice to be applied to attacks over 30' away since Telling Blow doesn't specifically forbid it? Or to nonlethal attempts with an axe?

Allowing SA to be triggered more than once in a given attack is letting a character have the damage potential of a character twice its level. A 7th level barbarian shouldn't be able to PA for 30 points of damage and a 7th level rogue shouldn't be able to SA for 8d6, even if the events are really really rare.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

No it isn't. Divine strike lets you use your sneak attack dice against undead. Razing Strike lets you add a number of dice to your sneak attack equal to the level of the spell slot burned. Nothing lets you use your sneak attack dice more than once per given attack unless it specifically says that it does. Telling Blow is not specific.

Or do you think that it allows SA dice to be applied to attacks over 30' away since Telling Blow doesn't specifically forbid it? Or to nonlethal attempts with an axe?

Allowing SA to be triggered more than once in a given attack is letting a character have the damage potential of a character twice its level. A 7th level barbarian shouldn't be able to PA for 30 points of damage and a 7th level rogue shouldn't be able to SA for 8d6, even if the events are really really rare.

Razing Strike says "the bonus on damage rolls is 1d6 per level of the spell sacrificed, plus any extra damage based on your sneak attack ability"

And a lance-weilding Leap Attacking Barbarian at level 7 will be doing + Power Attack damage x4, without critting. Add in a crit, or a crit with a greataxe, then compare it to the damage a rogue will be doing. Crits are supposed to hurt, but a rogue's double SA crit pales in comparison to the barbarian's PA crit.

Let's give both characters an 18 STR, unlikely for a rogue, but still.

Barbarian: damage on a greataxe crit = power attack for 6 (2 from charge, 2 from rage, 2 to match rogue's BAB), 1.5 x str x 3, 3d12 average 19.5. 36 + 18 + 19.5 = 73.5 and that's even without Leap Attack. (with Leap Attack, we're looking at around 80 damage)

Rogue: effectively doubled SA damage with Rapier crit (best weapon on rogue list) = str x 2, 10d6 (2d6 rapier crit + 8d6 effective SA) average 30.5. 8 + 30.5 = 38.5

73.5 > 38.5 by far

Barbarian single-handing a longsword instead, Leap attack 18 + 6 + 2d8 average 9 = 33
This is less than optimal, so we'll look at rogue without flanking.

Rogue: 8 + 6d6 average 21 = 29

33 > 29 and the rogue's total attack bonus is several points less.

Oh, and Telling Blow only says add you sneak attack damage to your crit, nothing about 'you can't do this and sneak attack your target too'. This feat came out after the sneak attack ability did, and most other feats that came out later have the limits and qualifiers written into them. Or at least say "this feat lets you sneak attack anything you crit." Which is exactly what you're saying this feat does. So saying 'they meant this even though it says this' doesn't change anything until the errata comes out and says so. This feat looks like it's making the rogue act like a burst weapon between flanking and not flanking. I'm not saying that's right, but there's another precedent to look at, game mechanics-wise .

 

[ElectricDragon]

Why not give the pitiful rogue Power Attack too (Str 18)? Change the weapon to Spear (1d8 x3) two-handed. This is more optimal than the rapier for damage output.

13.5 (3d8 avg.) + 18 (1.5 * Str * 3) + 12 (PA for 2, from charging, * 3) = 43.5 before Sneak attack of 28 avg. (8d6) = 71.5 avg. [Minimum = 41/Maximum = 102] Why isn't this a fighter build?

Normal would be 13.5 (3d8 avg.) + 18 (1.5 * Str * 3) + 12 (PA for 2, from charging, * 3) +14 (Sneak Attack 4d6 avg.) = 57.5 [Minimum = 37/Maximum = 78] Excellent damage for a skill monkey.

Barbarian (w/greataxe d12, x3 crit, two-handed, charging, raging, PA for 6) = 73.5 [Minimum = 57/Maximum = 90]

Just my two coppers.

Ciao
Dave

Edit: Raging barbarian would deal more damage though: instead of 18 Str he would have 22 Str (+6) * 1.5 * 3 = 27 instead of 18. So add 9 to Barb's numbers.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

I used rapier because the rogue would likely have a higher Dex then Str and have taken Weapon Finesse instead.
Oh, good catch about the raging strength, I had it in the hit but not the damage.

 

[moritheil]

What does whether or not something is balanced have to do with whether it is legal per RAW?

Anyhow, let's assume Kmart's razing strike example is right. If so, that person is not adding sneak attack twice; he or she is adding sneak attack once and then adding damage that just happens to be equal to sneak attack damage. It's a subtle distinction, but it's important. There is still not a case in which one actually adds sneak attack twice.

(And we have yet to see the rules quoted for proof that the example is right.)

 

[glass]

So show that they get to add the damage twice and you will have made your point. Just saying that they do gets you no further than it did with the original case.

Quote the whole post, it's right there.

OK, I'll quote the whole post:

The second case would be a cleric/rogue/skullclan hunter, with the Razing strike feat.

They flanked the undead target, so they get sneak attack from divine strike, and they burn a divine spell with Razing strike which does (1d6/spell level) + (your sneak attack dice) per hit for either 1 round or until the end of your turn, not sure how that part is worded without checking, but it is quite similar to Arcane strike but with less possible targets (consructs for arcane spell burned and undead for divine spell burned).

Still not seeing it. Lots of assertions, but precious little argument and no rules quotes.


glass.