D&D 5E Rogues and Sneak Attack

Li Shenron

Legend
I disagree. That's relying too much on chance

Really? To me it relies a lot on brains.

If you have an ally within melee reach, you can deal extra damage. That will come up a lot.

Indeed, in fact it will come up nearly always. It doesn't rely on change at all, but it also doesn't rely on brains either, unless you consider "always target an enemy who is in melee with one of your allies" a tactic that only the gifted players can keep in mind.

I also like you want the Fighter to be the best at fighting, with average damage output greater than anyone else, but also with high reliability (hits hard, hits often) and of course also the best defenses.

But the whole concept of Sneak Attack is about occasionally exceeding "normal" damage, with "normal" being not just the Rogue's normal but everyone's normal, even the Fighter's. This "occasionally" can be done in two ways: random (by chance) or situationally (by brains), and I think we agree that the second is more interesting and rewarding.

Do you know what I really believe is the big mistake in this packet? That they wanted to apply the mechanic of expertise dice to both in-combat and out-of-combat situations. If the Rogue's expertise dice covered only skills and saving throws (those also may apply in combat of course) it would be much better. The problem is when the Rogue also has straight attack and defensive combat abilities usable with ED.
 

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Grydan

First Post
That time would be basically every Interaction or Exploration event. Seriously, nobody's coming on here crying about how the Fighter class gives you that absolute worst class platform for either of the other pillars. He has no skill enhancements, no knacks, no spells, and no maneuvers dedicated to any of it.

Then let me be the first to do so.

(Though I have to assume that you mean "this thread" when you say "here", rather than "this forum", because I'm quite certain that I and others have raised the issue before.)

I am seriously unclear on why the fighter is the only one of the classes (disregarding the now-on-hiatus sorcerer) presented so far that gains absolutely no bonus skills.

Does learning combat take more of their time than learning magic takes of a wizard's, and learning both melee combat and magic takes of a cleric's? Both of those classes gain one bonus skill.

How can one be considered to have trained to be a master combatant without having learned balance? How to feint (bluff)? How to intimidate? Why don't all fighters have Knowledge (Warfare)?

--

I should also pause to note that the Rogue lost some of its support in the other two pillars in this change. In addition to the (probably necessary) backtrack on Skill Mastery, they've lost their free secret language, and the Schemes have lost pretty much all of their non-combat, non-skill benefits in favour of gaining some combat benefits. No more night vision, increased access to stealth, or immunity from surprise.

--

If you dig back far enough in the archives, you can find a lengthy post or two by me back when they first talked about the idea of the three pillars.

From day one, I've been vehemently opposed to the idea of trading off effectiveness in one pillar for losses in the others (especially when it's both others). The idea that this creates any sort of balance is only true if all campaigns have exactly the same ratios of the three pillars in play. I argued that we'd be much better off with a system that balanced the classes within each pillar. Take 4E's much vaunted (and, to be fair, much criticized) balance in combat, and apply it in the exploration and interaction pillars as well.

In the balance-across-pillars approach, the fighter was always destined to be the guy you'd love to have when combat rolls around, but a bit of a drag on the party the rest of the time. Given the name, and general concept of what a fighter is, of course their pillar to shine was always going to be the combat one.

The catch though, is that nobody's allowed to truly suck at combat. Even in a faster-paced system, combat takes up too much time and has stakes too high for a party of adventurers to drag around dead weight. The side effect of this is that "being the best" at Combat seems to cost "being any good at all" in Exploration and Interaction.

WotC, and many players, like to toss around the phrase "the fighter's the best at combat". But is he really? Oh sure, he's got access to the best weapons and armour, and has the best attack bonus and hitpoints. That's great, that's all very helpful, but it's a marginal edge at best, and can even disappear when matters of ability mods and equipment come into play. Being able to use plate gives you no edge over the guy who can only use chain if you cannot afford and have not found anything better than chain. Having a Weapon Attack bonus that's 1 higher than the Rogue's makes no difference if he's attacking with an 18 dex and you're attacking with a 16 strength. Your class may grant you bigger hit dice, but if the cleric has a higher Constitution than you, the difference in actual HP might be rather small.

In a shocking twist, it turns out all the other classes are actually good at combat too. Oh sure, if they try and fight like a fighter they won't hit as often or as hard. But they have no reason to fight like a fighter. When a Wizard fights as a Wizard (especially in the Battle Magic tradition), they make significant and meaningful contributions to combat without having to swing a sword. Sure, if they prepare all Combat spells this adventuring day, they're not going to be quite as effective at the other pillars (today) as they could be, but the important distinction is that they'll both still be decent, and that it's a daily choice how much they focus on a particular pillar. Clerics have combat magic, healing magic, AND can swing a mace pretty decently too. And again, they can choose to adjust their focus.

The Rogue, even with this scaled back Sneak Attack and scaled back non-combat abilities, has enough combat utility to contribute meaningfully. Especially now that he has access to some of the very same maneuvers that, last packet, gave the fighter an edge over him. All while still being dramatically better outside of combat.

"Being the best" at Combat apparently means a series of marginal edges, many of which are only really edges if you assume the other classes are playing against-type, whereas "being the best" at say skills, means gaining twice what the worst guy has.

If the fighter is going to have to suck in the other pillars (and I really think he shouldn't have to), then forget marginal edges and make the fighter the freaking god of war. Bump the advantage in Weapon Attack even higher. Grant two Expertise Dice from level 1. Make Cleave an automatic class feature that all fighters gain and which triggers every time they kill something, instead of something that you have to select and which costs Expertise Dice. Grant an AC bonus just for being a fighter.

Maybe then I'll be able to see why being good at combat is supposedly worth the cost in the other pillars.
 

Chris_Nightwing

First Post
My only suggestion to make the Rogue less like a diet Fighter is do give them free expertise dice specifically when they have advantage on an attack which they must spent immediately. So if they make an advantaged attack they can sneak attack, or pull off a cool maneuver, or throw a condition on an enemy.

Possibly the free dice could be used before the start of their next turn, so they might get a defensive bonus out of this too, but that seems a bit fiddly and maybe not sensible if they defend against an attack from a creature that wasn't the one they just had advantage against.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
I am seriously unclear on why the fighter is the only one of the classes (disregarding the now-on-hiatus sorcerer) presented so far that gains absolutely no bonus skills.

I honestly think that 4 skills are plenty for the Fighter.

All the athletic skills can be used without training, and a Fighter normally has high Str and often high Dex and Con also, so he doesn't really "need" more bonuses.

Wizard and Cleric get one Knowledge skills, which aren't a big deal IMO, but could also not get them and they would still fine.

The Rogue is the only class that really needs more skills than everyone else.

[Also Knowledge (Warfare) is inappropriate to a lot of fighters (duelists, guards, basically anyone who hasn't been trained in an army or actually involved in large-scale battles) so at least they shouldn't all get it as a default. Even Knowledge (Religion) is inappropriate to a lot of clerics, because each cleric obviously knows HER religion, but if you think about real-life examples very few priests actually study competitor religions, and this is why I like that no Cleric is actually forced to have this skill by default. The only case where a skill could be given by default is Knowledge (Arcana) to Wizards... still it's fine to leave it optional for those 1% of oddball wizards who learned all their stuff from a teacher/mentor but not from books. Say "NO" to automatic skills :D ]
 
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Li Shenron

Legend
My only suggestion to make the Rogue less like a diet Fighter is do give them free expertise dice specifically when they have advantage on an attack which they must spent immediately. So if they make an advantaged attack they can sneak attack, or pull off a cool maneuver, or throw a condition on an enemy.

Possibly the free dice could be used before the start of their next turn, so they might get a defensive bonus out of this too, but that seems a bit fiddly and maybe not sensible if they defend against an attack from a creature that wasn't the one they just had advantage against.

I don't understand your suggestion...

They get ED every round, so how does "must spend immediately" actually change the current implementation? Do you mean they could get MORE dice if advantage comes up? Isn't that way too open-ended, without a limit to how many? Or do you just mean that there is a higher limit (i.e. a higher number of ED) for some maneuvers, so that e.g. if you use ED for Sneak Attack then you get double ED?
 

Blackbrrd

First Post
To me sneak attack has always been about needing to position yourself to do extra damage. As in higher than the fighter's damage. To manage this in 3e I usually built a Rogue/Fighter using some huge-ass weapon. Compared to a straight up fighter I would:
- Have much less surviveability (low hp, low ac)
- Slightly lower base-to hit (needed flanking or surprise to get even)
- Lower damage than the fighter
- Higher damage than the fighter on the right conditions (from surprise, flanking, etc)
- More skills than the fighter

To me, playing a Rogue is playing a risk-taker with potentially higher damage. The current version of Sneak Attack and other Manoeuvres just makes the Rogue a strictly worse damage dealer than the fighter.

To sum it up: I want higher damage potential from the Rogue than the fighter, but make it more situational.
 

Kraydak

First Post
I honestly think that 4 skills are plenty for the Fighter.

All the athletic skills can be used without training, and a Fighter normally has high Str and often high Dex and Con also, so he doesn't really "need" more bonuses.

Wizard and Cleric get one Knowledge skills, which aren't a big deal IMO, but could also not get them and they would still fine.

The Rogue is the only class that really needs more skills than everyone else.

[Also Knowledge (Warfare) is inappropriate to a lot of fighters (duelists, guards, basically anyone who hasn't been trained in an army or actually involved in large-scale battles) so at least they shouldn't all get it as a default. Even Knowledge (Religion) is inappropriate to a lot of clerics, because each cleric obviously knows HER religion, but if you think about real-life examples very few priests actually study competitor religions, and this is why I like that no Cleric is actually forced to have this skill by default. The only case where a skill could be given by default is Knowledge (Arcana) to Wizards... still it's fine to leave it optional for those 1% of oddball wizards who learned all their stuff from a teacher/mentor but not from books. Say "NO" to automatic skills :D ]

From a game-play POV, the Fighter should have the second most (or most) skills, simply because he isn't going to have any non-combat class abilities. That said, class-abilities are where non-combat strengths really shine, so the Fighter does need to outclass everyone *in* combat.

You want to play a roguish fighter? Play a light-armor/finesse weapon fighter. Want to have impressive Out of combat mundane abilities? Play a rogue. Want both? Multi-class. The fighter outclassing the rogue in combat is a good design goal.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
You want to play a roguish fighter? Play a light-armor/finesse weapon fighter. Want to have impressive Out of combat mundane abilities? Play a rogue. Want both? Multi-class. The fighter outclassing the rogue in combat is a good design goal.

I would like so much this concept to be clear to the designers!

A Rogue doesn't have to be the same as a "finesse fighter". A finesse Fighter is a finesse Fighter! Give the poor Fighter class some breadth, and let it include the duelist and the swashbuckler concepts.

Then the Rogue doesn't fight finesse, but fights DIRTY, which is different, actually quite the opposite in fact. Tricks and improvisation, not competence and precision.
 

Chris_Nightwing

First Post
I don't understand your suggestion...

They get ED every round, so how does "must spend immediately" actually change the current implementation? Do you mean they could get MORE dice if advantage comes up? Isn't that way too open-ended, without a limit to how many? Or do you just mean that there is a higher limit (i.e. a higher number of ED) for some maneuvers, so that e.g. if you use ED for Sneak Attack then you get double ED?

I meant that at the moment they make an attack with advantage, they get some additional ED to spend on that attack. Their usual allotment can also be used on that attack, or saved for defence, or something else. It's only open-ended because I haven't suggested a number? Let's say you get 2d6: you can spend that on sneak attack, or if the maneuvers existed a sneak attack and hamstring to penalise their movement, or a hamstring and painful strike to slow them and give them a penalty to hit. If they don't spend them on that attack, they're lost.
 


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