Rogues flanking at range?

[Mistwell]

Yeah yeah, and the Rules As Written say that a Prayer Beads: Karma Only is FREE, and WOTC has not to date errated it despite the OBVIOUS miscalculation in the pricing formula. WOTC failing to fix things is not, in itself, much of an arguement that something wonky was actually intended.

To me, it's blatantly obvious that you can only flank with a melee weapon, period. I think the whole "When in doubt" portion of the paragraph makes it utterly and completely clear that we are not in any way speaking about a different situation, but the exact same situation just described in the prior sentence (which says "melee").

 

[Shellman]

So someone tell me how a Rogue could actually sneak attack with a ranged weapon!

I assume the conditions would be very strict like:

An invisible Rogue is standing within 30 ft of a target ready to take a shot from a Shortbow.

Are there any other conditions?

 

[Mark Chance]

You could always arm the rogue with a longspear. Then he could flank at sort-of-like-at-range.

 

[provik]

Perfect Wight

There's a reason why this ability is limited to an Epic Level prestige class.

Perfect Wight's class ability is potent and limited to a specific number of times per day. Also, it is limited to epic level characters (actually, at epic level, it makes it a little easier on the GM because it takes a little more of the positioning staging out of a combat and let's rogues get on with the damage dealing, making mundane events flow faster and the more complex issues of epic level combat come forward).

But anything less than epic level giving them that ability?

I seem to recall something recently in the Races of the Wild, the Whisper Knife, I believe.

Again, something that's not easily attainable right away and requires some sacrifice to get into.

 

[Seeten]

I contend you make the ability into a feat, and allow it or disallow it based on your campaign. In our campaign, the rogue is the 90 pound weakling, and never pulls his weight. Ranged sneak attacking still wouldnt make him "the best" or even second best, but it'd go a long way to making him better.

Never mind that it'd take him 6 levels to get the feats necessary.

 

[GimbleRaulnor]

I think it was the sniping part that the player was most interested in. He wanted to be able to get some advantage from a rooftop while his allies were already engaged with the enemy down on the street below... Move on roof, then shoot, then move again then shoot, and so on...

-W.

The tactical feat 'Woodland Sniper' from Races of the Wild is exactly what you're looking for.

 

[Goobermunch]

The PrC Whisperknife in Races of the Wild gives ranged flanking at 10' at 8th level or so. It's a halfling only PrC, requires quite a few feats, and I think it gives Rapid Shot or some other useful feat at 1st level. If I remember correctly it also lets you do ranged attacks without provoking AoO somewhere along the way.

Of course, the above fact makes Patryn of Elvenshae's argument a little shakier. While I realize that the core rules trump all else, in the case of ambiguity, we should probably try for an interpretation that gives full effect to all of WotC's rules.

If we can agree that the rule is, at least, ambiguous, then we should look to other sources for clarification. As far as I can tell, neither the current 3.5 FAQ nor the 3.5 errata are particularly helpful. I'm disinclined to rely on the 3.0 versions of these documents, because the wording of the rules has changed.

However, the Whisperknife's ranged flanking ability strongly indicates that Patryn's interpretation is not the intended interpretation and is not shared with the designers at WotC. If it were, it would be unnecessary to provide a "ranged flanking" ability at 10', because all PCs would have that ability whenever they were armed with ranged weapons (and at greater ranges).

Based on this datum, it is more reasonable to construe the rule against a general ability to flank at range. If anyone has other instances in the rules that would militate in favor (or against) of resolving the ambiguity in favor of ranged flanking, please post them here.

--G

 

[Storm Raven]

So someone tell me how a Rogue could actually sneak attack with a ranged weapon!

(Note: all apply to a rogue attacking with a ranged weapon from within 30 feet).

If the rogue is attacking someone who was being grappled.

If the rogue is attacking while invisible.

If the rogue is attacking someone who does not have Uncanny Dodge while they are flat footed at the beginning of combat.

If the rogue is attacking someone who is running.

If the rogue is attacking someone who is climbing.

And so on.

 

[mikebr99]

(Note: all apply to a rogue attacking with a ranged weapon from within 30 feet).

If the rogue is attacking someone who was being grappled.

If the rogue is attacking while invisible.

If the rogue is attacking someone who does not have Uncanny Dodge while they are flat footed at the beginning of combat.

If the rogue is attacking someone who is running.

If the rogue is attacking someone who is climbing.

And so on.

I'd just like to add the Sniping mechanic within the Hide skill to this list.


Mike

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Of course, the above fact makes Patryn of Elvenshae's argument a little shakier.

On the contrary!

You of course recall the excellent Prestige ability (of the Exotic Weaponmaster? class, I believe) from Complete Warrior which allows you, among other thing, to Power Attack 2-for-1 when wielding an exotic 1-handed weapon in two hands, don't you?

When wielding a one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands, you can focus the power of your attack so that you deal extra damage equal to your Str bonus x2. If you have the Power Attack feat, you treat the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining your bonus on damage rolls

Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.

In other words, just because it's a PrC ability, it doesn't mean the designer of that PrC has:

1. A complete understanding of the rules
2. Added anything that can't already be done in the base rules

In other words, it's happened before, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility to happen again.

EDIT:

Moreover, there's no indication at all that the designer of the Whisperknife PrC is the same person who redesigned the 3.5 flanking rules. Therefore, "designer intent" cannot be determined from this data point.

EDIT 2:

The possbility exists, however, that the new PrC ability allows the Whisperknife to benefit from the +2 flanking bonus to attack rolls, previously limited to melee attacks. In which case, it is consistent with a more general ranged-allowed reading of the flanking rules.