Rogues flanking at range?

[Winterthorn]

Hello folks,

Quick question (I hope): is there a means to flank an opponent who hasn't lost their Dexterity bonus with a ranged weapon, say for example at 60 feet, in order to satisfy the requirements for a Sneak Attack?

IIRC Sneak Attacks normally require one of two conditions:
1) both the attacker and an ally are flanking the opponent in melee, or
2) the opponent has lost his/her Dex bonus (like being flat-flooted).

I know Rogues can sneak attack at up to 30 feet if the second case is true, but is there a means such as through a prestige class ability, or a feat, that permits one to flank with a ranged weapon outside of melee and thus, in the case of Rogues, satisfy the requirements to execute a sneak attack? (I can see that this is a very powerful stunt to pull -- I would like to know if there is a way to do it in some conditional manner using various rules. Perhaps it's just a matter of exploiting a tactical situation rarely encountered?)

I've checked the SRD v3.5... I am looking for a fair rules work-around for Rogues if they are using a ranged weapon beyond 30 feet and the target hasn't lost their Dex bonus. If I have to invent some costly feat or ability, as DM I will, but before I do I would like to know if there is something published, maybe even "official" that will help me respond to my player's question -- hopefully other than "it ain't possible"

I dunno if this has been asked before (can't search here), but some info would be great!

Thanks in advance

-W.

 

[Deset Gled]

Simply put: no. You cannot threaten at range, so you cannot flank at range.

 

[mikebr99]

Simply put: no. You cannot threaten at range, so you cannot flank at range.

And I'll 2nd that.


Mike

 

[IcyCool]

Quick question (I hope): is there a means to flank an opponent who hasn't lost their Dexterity bonus with a ranged weapon, say for example at 60 feet, in order to satisfy the requirements for a Sneak Attack?

IIRC Sneak Attacks normally require one of two conditions:
1) both the attacker and an ally are flanking the opponent in melee, or
2) the opponent has lost his/her Dex bonus (like being flat-flooted).

I know Rogues can sneak attack at up to 30 feet if the second case is true, but is there a means such as through a prestige class ability, or a feat, that permits one to flank with a ranged weapon outside of melee and thus, in the case of Rogues, satisfy the requirements to execute a sneak attack? (I can see that this is a very powerful stunt to pull -- I would like to know if there is a way to do it in some conditional manner using various rules. Perhaps it's just a matter of exploiting a tactical situation rarely encountered?)

Well, I think you mentioned that you know this, but it's worth repeating. You can't flank with a ranged weapon, because you don't threaten with a ranged weapon. You would need to have some way of threatening with a ranged weapon, which would then make it like a reach weapon (attacks of opportunity and such). Doing this at a range of 60ft. seems, horribly powerful.

Now, denying someone their dex, that's easy. Buy a ring of blinking. That solves the problem of sneak attacking within 30ft. From there I suppose you could add a feat that extends the precision range out to 60ft, Improved Point Blank or somesuch. Put it in the Point Blank Shot tree.

Now that I think about it, I think there is something that lets you do precision damage at 60ft. I'll look for it tonight if no one else chimes in.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

If I have to invent some costly feat or ability, as DM I will

As the DM, you know your game. And just because something is extremely powerful does not necessarily make it unbalancing, depending on the nature of the campaign and the other PCs' abilities.

But I'd advise you to proceed with caution. What you're suggesting giving to the rogue is indeed a very, very potent ability. Note also that if you allow the rogue to threaten at range, which is required to flank, he can effectively take an attack of opportunity against anything that moves more than 5', casts a spell non-defensively, drinks a potion, stands up, etc. within that same range.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Here's the trick, though.

The 3.5 rules changed the definition of flanking. It no longer includes the stipulation that you are only flanking when you make a melee attack (a line which was in the 3.0 definition of flanking).

Now, you are considered flanking when:

an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers ... passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners ... )

Now, you certainly only get a +2 bonus on your attack rolls when:

making a melee attack ... if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

However, like everything else in D&D, you gain the bonuses or penalties for a condition when you posess the condition. You do not gain the condition when you gain the bonuses or penalties for that condition. Furthermore, having a condition does not require that you gain all the bonuses or penalties of that condition.

In other words, A implies B, but B doesn't necessarily imply A.

As an example, take invisbility. Two of the bonuses of invisibility are that you get a +2 on your attack rolls and your opponent is denied its Dex bonus. However, if you are striking a creature with Uncanny Dodge, that creature retains its Dex bonus. Even though you do not keep all the bonuses and penalties asssociated with being invisible, you remain invisible. Similarly, even though you don't get all the bonuses and penalties of flanking, you are still flanking.

And how is flanking determined?

When "an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers ... passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners ... )."

There is nothing in the newly-revised 3.5 definition of flanking that requires that you be making a melee attack - or even be threatening. Note, once again, that this is a change from the 3.0 definition of flanking, which specifically that you be making a melee attack.

Make of this what you will.

EDIT:

Note that, in both 3.0 and 3.5, it was not required that you actually threaten your opponent. Both, however, required that your ally be threatening your opponent if you want a flanking bonus on attack rolls, and 3.0 mentioned that you were only flanking during the period that you were making a melee attack while your ally threatened.

Note that all of this makes it impossible - in 3.0 - to flank during an unarmed tavern brawl (barring the presence of monks or Improved Unarmed Strike-enhanced combatants). In 3.5, it allows you to flank, but prevents you from gaining a +2 on your to-hit rolls.

 

[Atherlos]

Ranged flanking

The PrC Whisperknife in Races of the Wild gives ranged flanking at 10' at 8th level or so. It's a halfling only PrC, requires quite a few feats, and I think it gives Rapid Shot or some other useful feat at 1st level. If I remember correctly it also lets you do ranged attacks without provoking AoO somewhere along the way.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Note that all of this makes it impossible - in 3.0 - to flank during an unarmed tavern brawl (barring the presence of monks or Improved Unarmed Strike-enhanced combatants). In 3.5, it allows you to flank, but prevents you from gaining a +2 on your to-hit rolls.

From the 3.5 SRD:

Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: <snip> Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy.

This seems to draw a strong correlation between being able to threaten, and being able to flank.

FLANKING
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.
When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.
Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

This is the full quote that you cited in part earlier. Note that the very first words are "when making a melee attack". I'm not sure how you can argue that you can be making a ranged attack and be considered flanking, when the section itself begins with the stipulation that you be making a melee attack. Also note again the stipulation that a creature without Reach (and therefore that does not threaten) is also barred from flanking. Not barred from receiving a +2 bonus, not barred from giving an ally a flanking bonus. Cannot flank, period. Again, this suggests to me that if you don't threaten, you don't flank, even in 3.5.

 

[Jdvn1]

I'm not sure how you can argue that you can be making a ranged attack and be considered flanking, when the section itself begins with the stipulation that you be making a melee attack.

I wanna see an archer hit someone with his bow.

*WHACK* You thought I wasn't threatening you, didn't you?

 

[Winterthorn]

Simply put: no. You cannot threaten at range, so you cannot flank at range.

One must threaten first in order to be able to flank... Makes sense mechanically (strictly by game term definitions). So "threatening" at range is not possible...

Then the trick would be to find some extraordinary means to flank at range even though we are too far to "threaten" as we would normally in melee? So then I prefer finding an exception to the standard rules: an exceptional means to Sneak Attack at range... Which is why I asked up if there were feats somewhere or other some such work-around to do this. I'm trying to find a plausible rules bend, something that would cost a Rogue if he/she were to pursue this tactic (so game balance is not totally thrown out of whack).

-W.