Role/Roll Playing

[Water Bob]

I like to design a character around my initial concept as far as I can; that means I sometimes make suboptimal choices--deliberately.

Some people tend to equate playing suboptimal (mechanically) characters with roleplaying. I think, as I said up thread, that a good roleplayer plays a character no matter the outcome of the stats. A good roleplayer can take a monster of a character and make him a memorable personality and with equal skill, take a weak (stat-wise) character and make him just as memorable.

The test I mention is a good one, I think, because most players, good roleplayers or not, have no problem playing a monster-stat super-hero character. More players, though, have trouble with, or flat-out refuse to play a character that they don't consider a "hero".

I don't think of them as optimizers.

I don't think optimization is a bad thing at all. Why not take what you got and make the best of it? Got a monster-stat character? Good for you. Kick some butt!

Got a poor, weak, character? OK, then, do something with it. Treat it as a challenge and make him an interesting character in spite of his stat-deficiencies.

The threat is about rollplaying vs. roleplaying. Great roleplayers play characters, regardless of "good" or "bad" stats. Rollplayers play stats.

I also feel the distinction between rollplay and roleplay to be a weak one.

I don't. Although I do think the line is blurry, and the distinction is rather gray than black & white. I've known players who are great roleplayers as long as they have characters that they consider to be superior stat-wise. Yes, these people fail my test because I don't consider them overall great roleplayers--their great play is conditional.

To me, a great roleplayer is someone who can take a stick and make it the most memorable forest you've ever seen.

There's a player that will be upset that his mage has a low CON score, citing that mages already have the smallest hit die and mages need every hit point that they can get. Then, there's the player who will look at that low CON score, accept it, embrace it, and turn his mage into the scratchy voiced, health-problemed, Raistlin Majere.

 

[RedTonic]

If the line's blurred rather than clear, that's "weak." I did not write that it's nonexistent. I can see where you're coming from elsewhere--but I think you may be taking what I said about making suboptimal choices to the extreme. I never (deliberately) make a crappy character.

I also haven't played a character in years whose stats were entirely randomized--attributes, that is. I haven't ever played a completely randomly generated character--it would be fun, it's just never come up in games I've played.

Also, I didn't write anything bad about optimizers. I believe an optimizer sticks to the rules or otherwise works with the DM to make something which accomplishes, to the best of his ability, what the optimizer intends. I said I dislike people who try to trick the DM into allowing something that's uber, which a fully-informed DM probably wouldn't allow (and I didn't say that the "thing" in question had to be within the RAW, either). I clearly defined my term for that person--munchkin.

I feel like you're picking out controversy in my post where I wrote none, WaterBob.

 

[Water Bob]

I feel like you're picking out controversy in my post where I wrote none, WaterBob.

Don't feel that way. We're just talking about a game, here. No ruffleing of feathers necessary. Life's too short.

 

[Duke Arioch]

Basically, I do both... preferably at the same time. But, I do put role over roll, and enjoy meaningful characters more than uber-awesome-mega characters.

 

[xigbar]

Might as well throw in my two cents about WaterBobs's scenario....I think there is a difference between a roleplayer and an acting afficionado. I tend to try and optimize my characters to help them meet the flavor I want. If I want to make a character to be a "might is right" kind of character, I'd be complaining about having 1HP too. That doesn't make me less of a roleplayer, it just makes it that I want to match the person I have in mind. I get just as much joy out of making something powerful as I do making an interesting personality, because the two go hand in hand if you see them as becoming powerful. And most people DO in fact want their characters to be powerful at the high levels.

 

[Water Bob]

If I want to make a character to be a "might is right" kind of character, I'd be complaining about having 1HP too. That doesn't make me less of a roleplayer, it just makes it that I want to match the person I have in mind.

Not too many people would embrace the 1 HP Fighter. If I were playing, I wouldn't hope to get only 1 HP, but if I did, I'd accept it and make the most out of it.

I've seen many players who just won't play if they roll 1 HP. I don't have a lot of respect for that type of player.

There's no reason why this character can't grow to be very powerful at the higher levels.

 

[xigbar]

Not too many people would embrace the 1 HP Fighter. If I were playing, I wouldn't hope to get only 1 HP, but if I did, I'd accept it and make the most out of it.

I've seen many players who just won't play if they roll 1 HP. I don't have a lot of respect for that type of player.

There's no reason why this character can't grow to be very powerful at the higher levels.

Sure there is. They won't be very likely to SURVIVE to high levels. If the point of making a character is to roleplay it, I'd like to do so as long as possible. Death happens in D&D, but it happens much more often if you die in one attack.

 

[Water Bob]

Sure there is. They won't be very likely to SURVIVE to high levels. If the point of making a character is to roleplay it, I'd like to do so as long as possible. Death happens in D&D, but it happens much more often if you die in one attack.

Think about it. In 2E AD&D, the default stat rolling method is 3d6 with no arrangement. CON averages 10-11. This means that you have no CON bonus.

Fighters, in 2E AD&D, are d10 HD. You'll average 5 hit points.

A longsword does 1d8 damage.

This means, at first level, there is not too much of an advantage at having 5 hp at 1st level over having 1 hp. One stroke of a longsword is likely to kill you.

First Level in 2E AD&D is pretty doggone dangerous to all characters, regardless of stats.

In fact, one could argue that the character with 1 HP might have a longer life expectancy because the player knows that any damage at all will kill his character. Therefore he's very careful with the character during the first level, always fighting from a distance, never entering melee. Whereas the player playing a character with 5 hp might take some chances--fight a goblin or a kobold.

 

[xigbar]

Think about it. In 2E AD&D, the default stat rolling method is 3d6 with no arrangement. CON averages 10-11. This means that you have no CON bonus.

Fighters, in 2E AD&D, are d10 HD. You'll average 5 hit points.

A longsword does 1d8 damage.

This means, at first level, there is not too much of an advantage at having 5 hp at 1st level over having 1 hp. One stroke of a longsword is likely to kill you.

First Level in 2E AD&D is pretty doggone dangerous to all characters, regardless of stats.

In fact, one could argue that the character with 1 HP might have a longer life expectancy because the player knows that any damage at all will kill his character. Therefore he's very careful with the character during the first level, always fighting from a distance, never entering melee. Whereas the player playing a character with 5 hp might take some chances--fight a goblin or a kobold.

And that's a perfectly valid point, but it's exactly the reason they made the "fully rolled HD at first level" change to 3.X. I am of the opinion that if a player has a certain character concept in mind, he should be able to make it as close to his original concept as possible, within the limits of character creation I could conceivably establish as DM. This is why I prefer point buy, because it satisfies both roleplayers and rollplayers. They can't mold there stats to the person or the mechanics.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Think about it. In 2E AD&D, the default stat rolling method is 3d6 with no arrangement. CON averages 10-11. This means that you have no CON bonus.

Yes, and characters were quickly generated and disposable. When Bob the Fighter died in his first combat, the party mysteriously stumbled upon Bob II the Fighter being held captive by the orcs, and, him seeming a trustworthy fellow, he was quickly added to party.