Rolling for stats. Need some advice

[Dandu]

I would just caution you against feeding the player mentality that the game isn't any fun unless you have awesome stats. Better in the long run to teach them that the stats themselves don't really matter; it's what they do with them that counts.

Counterpoint: what you do with universally low stats as a monk is suck.

D&D involves lots of combat, and to fight requires you to have at least decent stats. If you've been really screwed by rolling (Say, 15, 14, 14, 10, 9, 8) then you probably won't be of much use unless you're a druid or something. Yeah, clever tactics can ameliorate the issue somewhat, but that's like taking an ibuprofen after you've been shot in the foot.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

You know what, you actually give me a great idea. I don't quite like just roll 2D6 and add 6 because i still leaves an opening for a negative modifier to be applied, in which I am trying to prevent. So I am going to advance on your idea, or the idea in PH2. How about this. Each player will roll 2D6+6 like you had said, however if a player rolls a 1, then they get to reroll that dice. So at the very worst situation they get a 10 on their ability score by rolling 2+2+6.

I think it's worth noting that this method will create an average score of 14. Even assuming that nobody gets extreme results (10s and 18s), this method is the equivalent of about point buy 40. If any 18s are rolled, which is highly likely, the point buy equivalent is even higher.

So assuming your players are halfway intelligent, you're basically telling them "Don't bother point buying, rolling is better." If that's what you want, mission accomplished.

 

[Theone0581]

I think it's worth noting that this method will create an average score of 14. Even assuming that nobody gets extreme results (10s and 18s), this method is the equivalent of about point buy 40. If any 18s are rolled, which is highly likely, the point buy equivalent is even higher.

So assuming your players are halfway intelligent, you're basically telling them "Don't bother point buying, rolling is better." If that's what you want, mission accomplished.

Thats not my intention at all... You really should chose a better choice of words with regards to how you use them. One may easily have taken your response to more of an insult than anything else.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Counterpoint: what you do with universally low stats as a monk is suck.

No more so than you do as, say, a fighter with "universally low stats." There are some people who think any fighter with a 14 Strength would necessarily "suck." I'm not one of those people.

D&D involves lots of combat, and to fight requires you to have at least decent stats. If you've been really screwed by rolling (Say, 15, 14, 14, 10, 9, 8) then you probably won't be of much use unless you're a druid or something. Yeah, clever tactics can ameliorate the issue somewhat, but that's like taking an ibuprofen after you've been shot in the foot.

Again, I disagree. I don't consider 15, 14, 14, 10, 9, 8 to be "really screwed" stats; I've played lots of characters with stats like that, and haven't had any trouble being useful in combat or having a heck of a lot of fun RPing.

I realize that a lot of people do think a character with 15, 14, 14, 10, 9, 8 for stats would be unplayable, however. I won't be so patronizing as to say that I feel sorry for those people, but my experience has definitely been quite different.

 

[HoboGod]

Point buy really is the only way to guaranty players will not be disappointed by their rolls. If your players like the chance of getting better stats and you want to respect that, then you absolutely CAN NOT give them rerolls based on pity. They took the chance and rolled the dice, figuratively and literally. What's the gamble if you take out the penalty? Rather, if you're doing a 32 point buy or roll 4d6, I'd suggest you allow them to roll 4d6 for their first 3 stat points and give them 16 points to spend on their last three stat points. It's not enough points to get their high stats from the point buy, but enough to get decent stats, but also reduces the chance of getting too many low stats.

 

[Dandu]

No more so than you do as, say, a fighter with "universally low stats." There are some people who think any fighter with a 14 Strength would necessarily "suck." I'm not one of those people.

What does a fighter with 14 strength do?

I mean, he's not hitting things (well), he's not dealing damage (much), and I doubt if he's the party face... I understand that you can still roleplay with low stats since there's nothing stopping you from saying "Thog smash talky man for hurting puppy" but when it comes to the actual smashing, it seems like there's going to be a problem.

Again, I disagree. I don't consider 15, 14, 14, 10, 9, 8 to be "really screwed" stats; I've played lots of characters with stats like that, and haven't had any trouble being useful in combat or having a heck of a lot of fun RPing.

I'm glad you have fun roleplaying, but I am talking about mechanical performance. If everyone uses low stats, and/or if the DM softballs, then you probably won't notice a difference. However, if you play with someone who rolled 18, 17, 17, 16, 15, 14, you'll probably notice a difference in contributions; likewise, if the DM doesn't decide to go easy on you, you're likely going to take a dirt nap real quick as rocket tag tends to be unforgiving of people with low saves and special defenses.

I don't know if you can roleplay your way out of avoiding six bites to the face from a hydra due to the fact that you were not able to kill it in time, but if you can then I guess that makes my complaint less valid.

I realize that a lot of people do think a character with 15, 14, 14, 10, 9, 8 for stats would be unplayable, however. I won't be so patronizing as to say that I feel sorry for those people, but my experience has definitely been quite different.

It's not unplayable (in that, even if your character sucks, you can still play him), but it favors some classes (casters, say, a Drud) far over others (melee, say a Monk).

If you want, you can build a level 2 fighter with the stats 15, 14, 14, 10, 9, 8 and we can run some numbers. How would you say we determine if something sucks or not? I'm thinking we put it in a party and run it against some CR appropriate monsters. Or we could come up with some things a level 2 fighter should be able to take on his own (two CR 1/2 orcs, for example) and have a few mock battles.

For example,

Example Fighter:
Bob
Level 2 Human Fighter
BAB: +2
Init: +0
AC: 15 (touch 10, flatfooted 15)
HP: 10+5.5+4 = 19
Str: 15, Dex: 10, Con: 14, Int: 14, Wis: 9, Cha 8
Saves: Fort: +5, Ref: +0, Will: -1
Feats: Power Attack, EWP: Spiked Chain, Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip.
Attack: +5, Damage: 2d4+3 (average of 8)

Example opponents:

Ape
Cheetah
Huge Monstrous Centipede
Large Monstrous Spider

 

[Herzog]

Just wants to add my to cents to the discussion:

I've been playing D&D for 20 years now, and I've never used point buy.
Not as a player, not as a DM.

We used to use the standard 3d6 in order, no rerolls when playing Rules Cylopedia D&D.
Now, we use the standard 4d6 drop lowest, assign freely, reroll when bonus too low when playing 3.5

The rolling system allows for high rolls, the reroll prevents too low stats.

That said, I've played characters with ridiculously high stats, and characters just above the reroll requirements.
It creates an imbalance unlike any other roll in the system (except maybe hp rolls per level) because it's a roll that stays with you throughout your entire character's lifespan.

If, at any time, my players would argue that the rolling system creates unfair advantages and disadvantages, and they'd like to use a more balanced system, I'd switch to point buy without a thought.

Rolling allows for higher stats than point buy, with the included risk of getting low stats.
If that's your (and/or your player's) thing, use rolling. If it's not, use point buy.

But don't take pity on the rolling players. They know what they're in for choosing rolling, and they should take the bad with the good.

 

[delericho]

Honestly, while I love random rolls in principle (especially any "roll in order" scheme), I feel that stats in 3e/4e/PF are just too important to leave to chance. I would have to advocate having everyone use 32-point buy.

Incidentally, I certainly wouldn't give individual players a choice of generation methods. I might allow a vote between rolls or point buy, but once the decision was made, everyone should use the same IMO.

If you do decide to go with random rolls, there really needs to be an understanding around the table that having a character with low stats, and playing those low stats, is part of the fun! If your players are just going to ignore those low stats, or, worse, they're going to hate having a character with those low stats, then you really need to go with point buy.

Now, in your situation, I would be inclined to offer the players who chose random rolls the one-off option to re-stat their characters using 32-point buy (or whatever everyone else used). And thereafter, require all new characters to use the point buy.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

1. Player character CANNOT be equal. Take two identical characters; class, race, and ability scores. Now have different players choose skills, spells, abilities, equipment, etc. and play them - they will not turn out the same and one will likely be "better" than the other. It is therefore UNREASONABLE to ever expect that all PC's in a party even can be equal much less should be expected to be equal.
2. D&D is not a game of competition between players. Someone else at the table having a better set of scores than me should not particularly diminish my enjoyment. If it does then the only solution is for all players to use point buy or else the same set of numbers to build their PC's - NO EXCEPTIONS. However, the wider the gap between scores the more understandable the jealousy especially when the two characters are trying to do the same job (i.e. two fighters with greatly different strength scores).
3. Some players are better at creating effective characters than others. This will never, EVER change even if you enforce use of point buy/ identical scores.
4. Some players will always want what they haven't got. When they see someone else enjoy playing a PC more than they enjoy their own PC they will look for reasons why they've been "cheated". Changing character creation methods won't change this.
5. Random methods are RANDOM. If players can't accept the spread you'd better have thresholds established of what's minimally acceptable BEFORE anyone drops a die.
6. If players are unwilling to accept even one negative modifier then either you're running a remarkably high-powered game or your issue is NOT with your character generation method.

Just MHO.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Player character CANNOT be equal. Take two identical characters; class, race, and ability scores. Now have different players choose skills, spells, abilities, equipment, etc. and play them - they will not turn out the same and one will likely be "better" than the other. It is therefore UNREASONABLE to ever expect that all PC's in a party even can be equal much less should be expected to be equal.

The issue point buy addresses is starting out on a level playing field, not being equal and/or identical. Big difference. BIG difference.

D&D is not a game of competition between players. Someone else at the table having a better set of scores than me should not particularly diminish my enjoyment. If it does then the only solution is for all players to use point buy or else the same set of numbers to build their PC's - NO EXCEPTIONS. However, the wider the gap between scores the more understandable the jealousy especially when the two characters are trying to do the same job (i.e. two fighters with greatly different strength scores).

Exactly. I had one game where the DM was very strict with rolling, and no rerolls. I had my highest stat a 14 and few negatives. Caluclated my effective point buy to be something like 15. I made a Warlock since they're largely stat-independent, and decided to be the party face. A few sessions in, a new player joins, rolls AMAZING with several rolls in the 16-18 range and nothing below 13. I calculated his point buy to be about 50. He made a Rogue and, with his massive load of skill points, just happened to grab the social skills, too. Without even trying to, he was able to completely outshine me at the one thing I tried to specialize in, on sheer ability scores alone.

Some players are better at creating effective characters than others. This will never, EVER change even if you enforce use of point buy/ identical scores.

No one said they wanted that to change. People just don't like being dropped with completely unplyable stats, or stats that make the concept you WANTED to play (and since noncasters are more stat-dependent, let's face it, in all likelihood if this happens, you're being deprived of playing what was an UNDERPOWERED character to begin with) impossible.

Some players will always want what they haven't got. When they see someone else enjoy playing a PC more than they enjoy their own PC they will look for reasons why they've been "cheated". Changing character creation methods won't change this.

Not for everything, but certainly when it comes to stat rolls they can't claim to have been cheated. In that arena, they were hoist by their own petard if they choose poorly. Obviously there are other facets of character creation where a player may (justifiably or not) feel cheated. That's no reason to add to the justified list.

Random methods are RANDOM. If players can't accept the spread you'd better have thresholds established of what's minimally acceptable BEFORE anyone drops a die.

This I totally agree with. I just hate when I'm forced into rolling cause the DM or a majority of other players want to. Then you're having to deal with the consequences of randomness without ever wanting to reap the potential benefits in the first place. Honestly, I don't even get excited when I get high rolls (it IS undeniably awesome when the jerk who LOUDLY insisted on rolling gets piss poor rolls, though, and that has happened...delicious karma), it's not like I accomplished anything, I just had one small string of luck. Go me?

If players are unwilling to accept even one negative modifier then either you're running a remarkably high-powered game or your issue is NOT with your character generation method.

Or the player's playing a very MAD class/combo that needs basically every score to be positive. Admittedly, few characters will need ALL stats, but in my love of monk and roguelike multiclassed frankensteins, I've created a fair number of "needs a moderate score in all stats" characters myself. Thankfully, those were all using point buy.