Round 14 Is Over

[cthulhu_duck]

A) And how is this automatically twinky munchkin behaviour?

Anything that smacks of minmaxing number crunching suggests Twink to me these days - but it might just be the group in question where the behaviour mentioned provoked the returning-to-D&D-after-years-away player to comment about how they couldn't really imagine someone sneak attacking with a Falchion - and comparing it to the days of yore where Thieves were Thieves and used daggers in their backstabs.

B) The whole point of a melee fighter is to be strong, so the Str 13 is irrelevant.

So what about the low strength, high dex swashbuckler, fencer types then? Should Melee combat have a "WARNING: ONLY STR 13+ CHARACTERS SHOULD ATTEMPT THIS" government warning?

B+C) D&D rewards the person who takes the risk by going toe to toe with the enemy, that's why its easier to hurt the enemy with close combat than a bow.

So you've never seen a Rog/Ftr/OOTBI character who can do 3x(3d8+3d6+2) per round? D&D can just as easily reward those who don't go toe to toe with the enemy... like the Bard with a Diplomacy of 20 at level 4, or the Wizard with Hold Person and Tasha's Hideous Laughter...

As THE main combat feat

Power Attack is arguably the main MELEE combat feat, but THE main combat feat?

and with glorified class features like Two Weapon Fighting and Weapon Finesse

Care to explain how Weapon Finesse is a glorified class feature?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

So what about the low strength, high dex swashbuckler, fencer types then? Should Melee combat have a "WARNING: ONLY STR 13+ CHARACTERS SHOULD ATTEMPT THIS" government warning?

Should it? No. I think we need a feat or class feature that makes two-weapon fighters/dex based fighters just as good. Still, I think we need to leave strength based fighters this one.

So you've never seen a Rog/Ftr/OOTBI character who can do 3x(3d8+3d6+2) per round? D&D can just as easily reward those who don't go toe to toe with the enemy... like the Bard with a Diplomacy of 20 at level 4, or the Wizard with Hold Person and Tasha's Hideous Laughter...

Umm, Sorry, I miss how you can do this. I know how you can get the 3d6 from a combination of elemental damage on bows and sneak attacks, but it normally requires that the enemies aren't immune to the element or immune to sneak attacks. And even if they aren't, you need to have someone else cast an improved invis in order to get the sneak attacks. Normally it is something closer to 3x(1d8+1d6+5). If you are thinking that you can use the OOTBI's power, it is a standard action, so it means only one attack per round if you add the extra damage. This averages 13 damage per hit or 39 damage per round.

A strength based fighter/barbarian at this level is likely doing 2x2d6+16 for average of 23 damage or 46 per round. Normally just a bit more. However, with power attack, it is normally 2d6+26

 

[Gez]

Weapon Finesse, like TWF, should be an automatic class feature for rogues, monks, rangers, fighters, druids, bards, clerics, and a racial trait for elves, gnomes and halflings.


On the same logic, it's easy to say that Power Attack is a glorified class feature of Fighters and Barbarians.

I don't agree that any of these feats should be class features. If you want to remove them from feathood, then they have to become basic combat options, open to everybody.

Combat class features are rather things like Rage or Flurry of Blow. Those, I agree, are class features.

But anybody can be interested in Weapon Finesse, even a sorcerer. While it wouldn't make much sense for a wizard to start raging with a flurry of blows once his spells are exhausted.

 

[IronWolf]

Go away TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING

 

[Bront]

I voted for two weapon fighting (Not a bad feat for flavor, and sometimes mechanicaly usefull, but worst out there).

(C) No comparable feat that relies on high DEX to allow you to damage your foes in other ways than just raw brute force

Other abilities that grant this are class features, because this is generaly well beyond a feat (Easier to put more muscle behind an attack instead of strike more precicely). Of course, Point Blank shot allows a +1 attack AND dmg to any ranged attack, regardless of dex or weapon(so, it includes throwing a dagger at x3 range), and I don't see you complaining about it.


BTW, I understand it might be easier on you spunkrat, but I think posting to vote is a better idea. We have more votes this round that a few of the double voting rounds, and it's still around 6 AM.

 

[Testament]

*Deep breath*. ROGUES ARE NOT THIEVES! You can sneak attack with any weapon by hitting them somewhere it hurts, and any weapon is a valid choice if someone's playing the tricksy dirty fighting SOB. I'd rather use a big brutal weapon to take down someone fast, daggers are tools and stylish thrown weapons, not a primary weapon. Seems to me that you're way too fast to call twink.

The high dex swashbuckler goes either Duellist or Swashbuckler, and thus gains his intelligence to damage, reliably and doesn't gamble for higher damage/lower accuracy like Power Attack. Improved Critical and improved initiative+rogue level goes further.

A prerequisite as low as Str 13 is little more than a token prerequisite to restrict it to at least remotely combat based characters. And yes I've seen the sort of archery in question there, although as Majoru pointed out, the example you gave was actually illegal. And on the matter of rewarding, I probably should have said "D&D rewards the person who takes the risk IN COMBAT".

Oh, and on Weapon Finesse being a glorified class feature, I say that because I've never seen anyone who isn't a Swashbuckler type or a pure Rogue take it. I've seen members of nearly every non-arcane caster class taking Power Attack.

You obviously consider Power Attack to be an awesomely powerful feat. Doesn't that mean it should be winning this competition, rather than being voted off? To paraphrase Wulf, what planet are you on where Spell Penetration deserves to continue in this comp ahead of the fundamental melee feat?

 

[Gez]

I have seen Weapon Finesse for other characters and creatures than swashbucklers and duelists.

Even without paying attention to all those animals that get it as a bonus racial feat, I have seen Weapon Finesse put to good use by characters that were:

• Monk/Sorcerer and Monk/Cleric
• Sorcerer/Aristocrat, and
• Ranger/Wizard

See? None of them are swashbucklers nor duelists.

WF makes good sense for spellcasters with melee touch attack spells, if they want to increase their odds to hitting. (Even when ignoring natural armor, armor, and shield, their week BAB can still be a problem.) While Power Attack doesn't. Surprise.

 

[arscott]

(A) In 3.5, with the doubling of damage from two handed attacks, it leads to twinky munchkin behaviour like the party rogue using a Falchion two handed in their sneak attack.
(B) It's only of use in Melee attacks - which reduces it's usability to non melee fighting types - and requires a Strength of 13.
(C) No comparable feat that relies on high DEX to allow you to damage your foes in other ways than just raw brute force
...

Let me see if I understand you correctly. Your saying that Power attack is (1) too good for rogues who use two-handed weapons, and (2) a bad choice for rogues because they're not as durable in melee and don't always have the STR to use it?

Ridiculous.

Let's take a 6th level rogue, with 16 dex, 14 str, and a +1 falchion.
His attack bonus is going to be +6, his damage is 2d4+3/18-20, and his sneak attack damage is 3d6. He's taken Power Attack (and martial weapon proficiency so he can use the falchion).

Let's take another 6th level rogue with the same stats, but who has a +1 rapier, weapon finesse, and weapon focus instead.
His attack bonus is going to be +8, his damage is 1d6/19-20, and his sneak attack damage is 3d6.

Lets see how they stack up against an ac 15 opponent:

Rogue 1, with full power attack:
1-12 (60%) is a miss, 13-17 (25%) is a hit, and 18-20 (15%) is a critical threat, which confirms on 13 or better(so 6% confirmed, 9% regular damage) . That's 60% 0 damage, 34% 2d4+13+3d6 (average 28.5), and 6% 4d4+26+3d6 (average 46.5). that comes to 12.48 average damage per round.

with only half power attack, that changes to:
1-10 miss, 13-17 hit , and 18-20 crit threat , which confirms on 11 or better. 50% 0, 42.5% 2d4+9+3d6 (24.5), and 7.5% 4d4+18+3d6 (38.5). that comes to 13.3 average damage per round.

and with no power attack, that's:
1-8 miss, 9-17 hit, 18-20 crit on 9 or better. 40% 0, 51% 2d4+5+3d6 (20.5), 9% 4d4+10+3d6 (30.5) comes to 13.2 per round.

well, given those numbers, it looks like power attack one might be higher. let me try that:
1-9 miss, 10-17 hit, 18-20 crit on 10 or better. 45%0, 46.75% 2d4+6+3d6 (22.5), 8.25% 4d6+12+3d6 (34.5) comes to 13.365 per round.

Rogue 2 gets:
1-6 miss, 7-17 hit, 18-20 crit on 7 or better. 30% 0, 59.5% 1d8+3+3d6 (18), 10.5% 2d8+6+3d6 (25.5) comes to 13.3875 per round.

Hmm. Doesn't look very broken to me. But perhaps I was unfair in using an AC as high as 15. After all, while that's slightly below average for a CR 6 encounter, the target of the sneak attack will have lost its dex bonus or taken a penalty for being flanked. Plus, the party might be up against several lower CR foes. Let's try 10:

Rogue 1--Full Power Attack:
1-7 miss, 8-17 hit, 18-20 crit on 8 or better. 35% 0, 55.25% 28.5, 9.75% 46.5 for 20.28 per round

Rogue 1--Half Power Attack:
1-5 miss, 6-17 hit, 18-20 crit on 6 or better. 25% 0, 63.75% 24.5, 11.25% 38.5 for 19.95 per round

Rogue 1--No Power Attack:
1-3 miss, 4-17 hit, 18-20 crit on 4 or better. 15% 0, 72.25% 20.5, 12.75% 30.5 for 18.7

Rogue 1--Power Attack 5:
1-6 miss, 7-17 hit, 12-20 crit on 7 or better. 30% 0, 59.5% 26.5, 10.5% 42.5 for 20.23

Rogue 2:
1 miss, 2-17 hit, 18-20 crit on 2. 5% 0, 80.75% 18, 14.25% 25.5 for 18.16875


I don't see much broken here. AC 10 is the equivalent of attacking an unarmed human commoner. Despite this, a two handed power attack backstab is only going to do an average of 2.11125 points more damage. Of course, 6th level rogues are just as likely to face opponents with AC 20 as ones with AC 10. And they'll do a bit worse there.

So while there might be a reason to vote against power attack, Brokenness is not one of them.

 

[Thanee]

Two-Weapon Fighting, because Wulf doesn't realize how much better Precise Shot is!

Why spend a feat to become worse at fighting?!

The only way to make TWF work is to go munchkin by racking up damage bonuses like crazy.

I just. Don't. Get It.



Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

(A) In 3.5, with the doubling of damage from two handed attacks, it leads to twinky munchkin behaviour like the party rogue using a Falchion two handed in their sneak attack.

Oh yes, that was so much better in earlier editions!

“You're gonna backstab him with a ballista!?”
“With a f*cking siege weapon?!?”
“Ok, there gotta be a rule against this...”

In 3E/3.5E at least you can deal decent sneak attack damage with a dagger.

Bye
Thanee