Round 17 IS OVER

Greylock · May 11, 2005

POWER ATTACK

Mr. Kaze · May 11, 2005

Seule said:
I really hate Rapid Shot. Watch an actual real-world archer sometime... Somehow in D&D archery became the attack that you make more often for less damage, rather than the other way around. It's a holdover from the 1-minute rounds.

While watching a real-world archer some time, also watch the real-world fighter that has to keep fighting uninibited by one-or-more pointy projectiles sticking out of their chest or through their appendages until they're down to 0HP.

Or watch a 1st level fighter with dex of 18 and combat reflexes and 2-weapon fighting make 6 attacks in as many seconds as people are running out of a burning building or somesuch. (Compare to the Smoke 'em Out scenes in Yojimbo or Seven Samurai.)

Or just watch a gnome in full plate take a 5' step as a free action.

Problem is that this is a game which has borrowed extensive terminology from reality, but has brought with it very few of the laws of physics. Ergo, real physics are not a reasonable reason to be opposed to a specific rule (such as Rapid Shot). All of the rules, sure, but it's not just Rapid Shot that doesn't jive with reality.

Mr. Kaze · May 11, 2005

atom crash said:
While Weapon Finesse seems like a great idea, I've never used it because of the +1 BAB requirement. Which means that the characters who need it can't take it at 1st level.

Totally agree, unless somebody comes up with a dual-shortsword wielding ranger or something. In which case I would still agree 90%. Would rather see the BAB restriction removed than the entire feat tossed, though.

I think the intent behind the BAB restriction was "well you have to know how to use a weapon before you can use it with finesse," but IMO we've got weapon proficiency for determining that sort of thing.

Tolen Mar · May 11, 2005

Wulf Ratbane said:
You must be an artist.

Lol, thats cute...and why do I have to be an artist to feel this way?

(NM the fact that you are right...)

GoodKingJayIII · May 11, 2005

I like Imp Initiative as a player, but like I said before, I just can't enjoy feats that just add unexciting bonuses to attributes. Give I.I. the axe, I say!

Tolen Mar · May 11, 2005

Wulf Ratbane said:
I was too late to save TWF

<snip>

OK, you make very valid points here. And yes, in general, making more attacks means you'll hit more often. But -2/-2 isnt the whole situation here. We are talking about higher level characters where its more like -2/-2/-7/-12...(assuming three regular attacks, plus the one off-hand.)

Yeah your first couple have a fair chance, but the extra turns afterward a) are far less likely than a simple 10% chance to hit and b) for rapid shot simply waste arrows. What difference does it make if you can fire 5 arrows in a round, when only the first two hit (You knew the first two would hit anyway).

With modifiers like that, only the first two are going to consistently hit, so save the arrows and quit taking gimmicks that let you throw more shots than can reasonably be expected to work. The feats you use to get that extra shot (or strike) can be better applied guaranteeing that the first ones you already can take (from your regular BAB) hit, or do better damage, not in taking a chance to throw another one in the mix at some rediculous penalty (Or worse yet add a penalty to the good shots you can make).

We are talking swords and bows here, not shotguns and machineguns. You dont have to be a marksman when you can throw that much lead around, something is going to get hit. But it likely wont be a very telling blow.

(Psst...BTW, if you have a 20% chance to hit with one shot, 3 shots does not equal a 60% chance. Its only 20% each.)

Joshua Randall · May 11, 2005

I voted for Improved Initiative. It's a great feat for certain characters (primarily rogues and spellcasters), but as others have pointed out -- it's too situational. Unless you are using variant rules, you only get your initiative improved once per combat.

I almost voted for Rapid Shot, because it doesn't fit the list -- the other feats are all base level feats, but Rapid Shot has a pre-req.

Point Blank Shot is a fine feat, and an important gateway feat for archers.

Weapon Finesse is a very important feat that allows players to model certain archetypal characters. I completely disagree with the impulse that it should be a weapon-related feature rather than a character-related feature.

Power Attack is an important gateway feat for burly fighters. A lot of the PA-based feats are highly evocative: Bull Rush and Improved Sunder just to name two.

Dakkareth · May 11, 2005

ThirdWizard said:
RIP Improved Initiative. *crosses fingers*

I hate improved initiative. I don't know why, exactly. It's just an unbridled dislike.

It's the opposite for me. Of course, with my initiative rolls (3s, 75% of the time) I need it ...

Wulf Ratbane · May 11, 2005

Tolen Mar said:
Lol, thats cute...and why do I have to be an artist to feel this way?

(NM the fact that you are right...)

Just an educated guess based on the fact that math clearly eludes you.

OK, you make very valid points here. And yes, in general, making more attacks means you'll hit more often. But -2/-2 isnt the whole situation here. We are talking about higher level characters where its more like -2/-2/-7/-12...(assuming three regular attacks, plus the one off-hand.)

Is there any point in doing the math for you again? Or are you just running on how you "feel" about that -2 penalty?

Because, actually, iterative attacks don't change the equation.

You'll want to make an extra attack if you need to roll a 17 or less (if all your attacks do the same damage, such as with arrows) or when you need to roll a 15 or less (if your second attack deals half damage, such as with a light weapon in your off hand).

(Remember that a natural 20 always hits, so you don't have to go too far down the iteration until you have a 5% chance of dealing damage, no matter what the penalty.)