RPGNow and the competition . . .

Status
Not open for further replies.
jmucchiello said:
Thanks, Phil.

EB, how does your theory work with that? Phil, a professional as you say, releases products that he doesn't expect to do well out of the gate. You'd segregate his slow movers to the dustbin rather than give them the chance to grow over time as the publisher expects.

To get to any category you'd call the "dustbin" you'd require exceptionally low sales. RPGNow effectively has this category with products that you have to actively look for to locate at all, once they aren't selling.

I'm not talking about a "dustbin." In fact, people do specifically look for less popular offerings in other media (which is why there's thriving independent music and film), and creating a segment for these could well improve sales, rather then harm them. I'm talking about a category that redefines a lower tier of sales into something worth looking at in its own right.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

eyebeams said:
I'm a freelancer. Also, cut the insults.

Doesn't matter if you are a freelancer or a corporation. The same idea applies regardless. Also there was no insult, just an observation that your point of view seems to lack logic and seems to come from a fear of competion. An insult would be to call you a blankty, blank, blank, etc. I don't see the need to do that. I will continue to say that your posts in this thread don't make sense to me. I will also point out that almost all the other posters on this subject have disagreed with you. If your point of view was logical you would have some more support.


eyebeams said:
I have no interest in crowding out successes. I wan't *everyone* to succeed.

You have an amazing way of showing that. A desire to artificially segment products in a way that would prevent people from purchasing most of the products is a way to keep others from succeeding. If you really want everyone to succeed, you want to lower the obstacles to success.

eyebeams said:
Making less than labour on a .pdf is not success, though, and businesses that accept this lower the standard for everyone. Currently, for instance, my standard for worthwhile work comes out to a pay rate of roughly US$20 an hour -- less than I'd like, because I'm an awful typist. For work that really interests me, I might take an effective cut.

Who are you to say what is success? Everyone has different ideas of what success is. What you consider success, others may not. Also the idea that you have to make a certain amount of money is just plain insulting to many entrepenours. There are thousands of companies that worked for a few years at a loss before they ever made a profit.

eyebeams said:
If you are running a low scale .pdf outfit, ask yourself: Are you looking at things this way? Are you filling an undiscovered or insufficiently explored niche or form of presentation? If the honest answer is "no," then you ought to start exploring non-commerciaal ways to get your ideas out.

Again why should they have to leave the commercial world just because you want them to? Again if you really feel this way you should stop trying to sell any of your work. There are others that are out there that have been doing things close enough to yours before you.

eyebeams said:
By contrast, incidentally, I think that amateur hobby web pages have been in a bit decline over the last few years, and could use a boost. There are still great pages out there (I'm fond of Wayne Peacock's Paleastra setting for instance), but really, there's plenty of territory there for your Olde Dwarven Mine dungeon and PrCs and such.

Why don't you start filling those hobby pages? If you see the need for them and want to limit the field of the commercial entries, then you should start doing the hobby stuff. I don't really expect you to stop freelancing, but why do you think that you should expect everyone else to limit their opportunities for your sake?


eyebeams said:
Competition exists between businesses. I don't man my own store and at this point, have no desire to do so. But as a contractor, I am *very* interested in companies doing well and in the hobby being healthy.

Competion exists whether you call yourself a company or a freelancer. When I freelanced computer articles, I had a one person company just to make it easier for me financially. The best way for the industry and the hobby to be healthy is to have the competition that you desire to avoid.

eyebeams said:
Ah -- this must be why TV commercials are all sober expositions on the objective merits of a given product, rather than matters of branding and buzz. Or not. Really, really not.

Marketing has two major points: awareness and perceived value. Those funny, sexy, flashy, etc. commercials are designed to make you aware of the product and to remember it. The other part of marketing is to make you want to buy the product. The way they do that is perceived value. Some products they tell you how good the product is and/or how much you
will save. Other times the perceived value is just the sense that a product is something that everyone else has or doesn't have. For instance Tommy Hilfager, you want it because you think everyone else has it.
 

Doesn't matter if you are a freelancer or a corporation. The same idea applies regardless.

Sorry, but it does matter. I don't sell my work to the public. I sell it to a company. It's a much different dynamic.

Also there was no insult, just an observation that your point of view seems to lack logic and seems to come from a fear of competion. ]An insult would be to call you a blankty, blank, blank, etc. I don't see the need to do that.

One key difference between an insult and a statement is that you back up your statements -- so do so, please. Am I using a strawman? Am I employing a reductio ad absurdum argument? I would appreciate a clear outline on what flaws you find in the logic of my argument.

I will continue to say that your posts in this thread don't make sense to me. I will also point out that almost all the other posters on this subject have disagreed with you. If your point of view was logical you would have some more support.

You appear to be the false impression that business decisions and their worth ought to be democratically determined.

You have an amazing way of showing that. A desire to artificially segment products in a way that would prevent people from purchasing most of the products

Please point out where I am advocating that people be prevented from buying something.

is a way to keep others from succeeding.

Actually, what I would like is for failures to shuffle off. Understand this: I believe that much of the problem consists of failures that people will not admit are failures. I want a thriving market where the consumer can more easily make a choice between reliable quality and experimental vision. These tiers have worked with every other form of media -- *every* one, as far as I can reasonably determine.

If you really want everyone to succeed, you want to lower the obstacles to success.

That's exactly what I want.

Who are you to say what is success? Everyone has different ideas of what success is. What you consider success, others may not.

Yes, and not all of these ideas are equally valid. If you are pulling less than minimum wage pumping this stuff out, you can call it success all you like -- but it isn't a definition of success that anybody ought to pay attention to.

Also the idea that you have to make a certain amount of money is just plain insulting to many entrepenours. There are thousands of companies that worked for a few years at a loss before they ever made a profit.

And there are thousands of companies that worked for years at a loss -- and made a loss. These are failed businesses.

Again why should they have to leave the commercial world just because you want them to?

If this was determined by my personal feelings, then I would point to some *successful* companies that I think ought to pack it in. I'm not. I'm talking about companies that aren't meeting reasonable standards.

Again if you really feel this way you should stop trying to sell any of your work. There are others that are out there that have been doing things close enough to yours before you.

To a degree, standards are subjective. I worked to ensure that there were few enough redundant elements in Posthuman to make it worth people's money. By contrast, though, there *is* work of mine that I don't think you should buy. Cyber Style: Net of Dreams is substandard work. The first draft was released without my knowledge before it was properly developed. You can look forward to superior work about the same subject later on in the Terminal Identity line. I would prefer that it was pulled, but I have no power over the decisions of the publisher since they eventually did render payment. So I am willing to say that something of mine shouldn't be out there.

(And to insert a plug, the hacking and virtual space stuff I have *now* is far superior, and I can't wait to share it!)

Why don't you start filling those hobby pages? If you see the need for them and want to limit the field of the commercial entries, then you should start doing the hobby stuff.

Your attempts to paint me as a hypocrite are growing increasingly tiresome. In fact, I do contribute commercially nonviable work to hobby pages regularly, under the auspices of my own blog and by submitting to sites like Wolf-Spoor.org. It may disappoint, but I *do*, in fact, walk my talk as much as I am able.

I don't really expect you to stop freelancing, but why do you think that you should expect everyone else to limit their opportunities for your sake?

Where are opportunities being "limited." The folks who are operating at a loss are not seizing an opportunity. They are failing and diluting the identity of successful companies.

Competion exists whether you call yourself a company or a freelancer.

It's a completely different kind of competition.

When I freelanced computer articles, I had a one person company just to make it easier for me financially.

This is not the same as releasing games. It really isn't.

If magazine freelance markets were like RPGNow, a magazine would be the size of a phone book. It would include every single submission by anybody who could spell and would be laid out by the authors. You would rely on an index that would give you a rough idea what it was about. If you waited a week, your copy would have annotations from random readers as to whether they liked an article or not. Half of the articles would describe plugins of out of date or obsolete software.

But I guess that would be OK, as long as the authors all felt good about themselves, eh?

The best way for the industry and the hobby to be healthy is to have the competition that you desire to avoid.

Conversely, I think that you are promoting a point of view where we pretend that nobody is *really* unsuccessful, because they've found self-fulfillment or somesuch. On a personal level, I applaud people doing these things. But I'm interested in promoting sustainable financial success, not therapy.

Marketing has two major points: awareness and perceived value. Those funny, sexy, flashy, etc. commercials are designed to make you aware of the product and to remember it. The other part of marketing is to make you want to buy the product. The way they do that is perceived value. Some products they tell you how good the product is and/or how much you
will save. Other times the perceived value is just the sense that a product is something that everyone else has or doesn't have. For instance Tommy Hilfager, you want it because you think everyone else has it.

Neither of these has anything to do with the actual quality of the product. You have agreed with me here, and disagreed with yourself, because you have shot down your own argument that the consumer is an actor who will automatically choose a quality product.
 

eyebeams said:
Sorry, but it does matter. I don't sell my work to the public. I sell it to a company. It's a much different dynamic.

But it's the sales to the public that keep the companies interested in buying from you, isn't it?

eyebeams said:
Actually, what I would like is for failures to shuffle off. Understand this: I believe that much of the problem consists of failures that people will not admit are failures. I want a thriving market where the consumer can more easily make a choice between reliable quality and experimental vision. These tiers have worked with every other form of media -- *every* one, as far as I can reasonably determine.

Where's the amateur and semipro section in Barnes and Noble again? I was in there, and all I saw were sections like fantasy/sci-fi, mystery, cookbooks...I think that's the fear that some of the other folks are expressing, the idea that they are going to get marginalized and ignored.

Also, 90% of the "professional" stuff in B&N was, as predicted by Sturgeon's Law, crap - so the separation into pro/semipro/am doesn't really help me there, either.

If magazine freelance markets were like RPGNow, a magazine would be the size of a phone book. It would include every single submission by anybody who could spell and would be laid out by the authors. You would rely on an index that would give you a rough idea what it was about. If you waited a week, your copy would have annotations from random readers as to whether they liked an article or not. Half of the articles would describe plugins of out of date or obsolete software.

...and you would only pay for the articles you wanted to read. Don't forget that very important piece. So a magazine, probably not the most accurate comparison you could make.

J
 


eyebeams said:
Yes, and not all of these ideas are equally valid. If you are pulling less than minimum wage pumping this stuff out, you can call it success all you like -- but it isn't a definition of success that anybody ought to pay attention to.
That explains so much.

Riddle me this, Batman: if your goal was to sing a solo at the Met, and with all the training and practice and such it cost you much more money than you were ever paid for it, yet you managed to sing a solo at the Met, would you call it a success or a failure?

And if your goal is to provide some gamers with some material they'll enjoy playing with, maybe recouping a bit of your time expense on the side?

I've been trying to figure your arguments out, disagreeing with you on every turn. Now I think I understand where you're coming from, at least. Though I still completely disagree with you.

(Your logic flaw, btw, is "false premise," though I'm certainly not going to argue it with you.)
 
Last edited:

Fast Learner said:
That explains so much.

Riddle me this, Batman: if your goal was to sing a solo at the Met, and with all the training and practice and such it cost you much more money than you were ever paid for it, yet you managed to sing a solo at the Met, would you call it a success or a failure?

Unlike the gaming industry, you have to be talented to sing at the Met.

I'm with Phil, though. I can see that enough people resemble my remarks that there's no point continuing.
 

Fine job completely ignoring the concept, and my second question nicely dodged through quote snipping. Alas.

Fair enough on ending it.
 



Status
Not open for further replies.

Pets & Sidekicks

Remove ads

Top