RPGNow and the competition . . .

[Jonny Nexus]

Overall quality should be consistent, but amatuer and semipro work needs to do something out of the ordinary conceptually to earn a place.

Why does this only apply to amateurs and semipros? Why is it okay for professionals to produce stuff that isn't "out of the ordinary conceptually?"

(From reading your previous posts, you appear to have *assumed* that non-pros will have lower standards of layout and graphics, and have then said - on the basis of that assumption - that they should therefore only stick to niche subjects).

Someone being an amateur merely means that they *can* afford to produce crap stuff. It doesn't mean that they will.

Why not just say that we don't care about people's business models, but that we just want people to produce good stuff? If it's good, we'll buy it. If it isn't, we won't. Because as soon as you start asking people to draw distinctions between full professionals and amateurs/semi-pros, it starts to sounds like some kind of restrictive guild system.

You make your living as a gaming professional. I don't. I do earn money by writing gaming stuff, but it is strictly a side-line. However, I do believe - perhaps arrogantly - that my semi-pro status is in no way down to a lack of talent on my part, but is much more a reflection of the fact that I can earn a lot more money by working as a computer programmer in the City of London. I would be rather annoyed if someone made assumptions about my degree of talent based on how I choose to earn my living.

Here's a suggestion: How's about RPGNow segment based on sales? We'll call it the "sink or swim" policy.

I'd have no arguments with that whatsoever. But it does appear to be the opposite of what you have previously been saying (which was that amateur and pro products should be judged according to different criteria).

 

[drnuncheon]

The industry does not need more of the same, and startup companies that prduce precisely that should be shown the door.

Why not let the sales decide that? If the industry really doesn't need more of the same then...they won't sell.

This is a false dichotomy.

If you notice, I covered both possible cases - where they replaced the current tags and where they did not.

So what you're saying is that something that will only help people make money is no good,

I remain unconvinced that it will help people make money.

Ask Ed Cha; he seems to think so.

I'm sure Ed Cha is never wrong. (With all due respect for Ed.)

Here's a suggestion: How's about RPGNow segment based on sales? We'll call it the "sink or swim" policy.

Sort of like the lists I see in the sidebar every time I go there? "Category best sellers" and the like?

 

[jmucchiello]

There are, as I have said, most assuredly *not* 300 distinct companies making mad dough on RPGNow. There are maybe a double handful of viable businesses and lots and lots of gamers willing to pour time and effort into putting product out at a loss, making RPGNow more difficult to navigate at the source.

The first sentence is true. In fact I'd say no one is make mad dough on RPGNow and maybe a few companies are making enough money to pay a few select people decent salaries.

The second sentence is untrue. At least for me. I have not lost a dime with my few product offerings. Throwing Dice Games was in the red for about a week between the time I paid for my domain name and hosting the first time and by the time my first book overcame that outlay. Every single outlay since then has been paid for by existing income. Now, that income doesn't allow me to retire and write my memoires but the point is, I invest as much time as I like into TDG and it supports itself. Thus the reason I haven't put out many products, but I don't think my well-received products are dragging RPGNow down.

More to the point, when we get to the small scale of .pdf publishing, I do feel it behooves the consumer to make choices that are good for the hobby. Good choices for the hobby mean supporting successes and picking distinct new work.

No, it behooves the customer to make decisions that are good for his or her game. The hobby is people playing the game. We all know that no one needs any more RPG books. Once you have a system you like, you don't need anything else. That is why RPGs don't make money. They are designed for creative people to stretch their imaginations. Well, it doesn't take too much of a stretch to realize that buying RPG books is not a necessity of participating in the hobby.

Plus, even though everybody swears by exceptions, successful companies usually actually pay people, and if you want the hobby to thrive, you want people who can draw a check from it.

What we want and what is realistic are not always the same. No one has the divine right of a paycheck just because they produce RPGs. See above for why expecting a paycheck for all producers is unlikely.

You put a .pdf up. It's filed as a new release. If it garners a set, high-ish number of sales, it goes into the "Gaming Gold" (or whatever) category (this is where stuff from Ronin Arts would probably go, it the target number was a good one).

So are you saying Ronin Arts gets a buy straight into this category? Shouldn't all of his products sink or swim as well?

Be that as it may, I'll bet if Phil were to post first week (or two week) sales for his last 10 or so products, you find a wide range of sales figures. Phil's books cover a wide range of genres and I'm sure the "target number" you crave actually varies by genre, category, etc.

If it doesn't, it goes into "New and Notable" (or whatever). When a Gamer's Pick drops below the threshold it goes into a category set up for it. Everything else goes into another, unmourned and unremarkable category.

This creates a core of successful releases and increases the utility of the site stats and shows us who's wearing the trousers (so to speak) in the RPGNow family. Somebody's bound to poke around in the less sales-driven categories (because people do that in *any* entertainment medium). And the words "pro" and "amatuer" don't get used.

Doesn't this segregation already happen thanks to the best in category lists on each category page (on the right)? How much more segragation is really necessary? How does sorting by popularity really help?

 

[philreed]

Be that as it may, I'll bet if Phil were to post first week (or two week) sales for his last 10 or so products, you find a wide range of sales figures. Phil's books cover a wide range of genres and I'm sure the "target number" you crave actually varies by genre, category, etc.

Absolutely. The number are between 1 and 63. I actually -- personally -- do some products knowing that they won't have huge initial sales. There are some types of products that are slow, steady sellers just as there are some that sell a lot fast and then slow down.

 

[jmucchiello]

Absolutely. The number are between 1 and 63. I actually -- personally -- do some products knowing that they won't have huge initial sales. There are some types of products that are slow, steady sellers just as there are some that sell a lot fast and then slow down.

Thanks, Phil.

EB, how does your theory work with that? Phil, a professional as you say, releases products that he doesn't expect to do well out of the gate. You'd segregate his slow movers to the dustbin rather than give them the chance to grow over time as the publisher expects.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

You know, the argument with Eyebeams is getting to the repeating yourself phase very quickly. Eyebeams is nt going to change his opinions, and those arguing their opinions against his aren't going to change theirs. (I know that I won't, I just think that he is wrong.) So can we pick up a different point to get this rolling along again?

The Auld Grump

 

[ronpurvis]

The industry does not need more of the same, and startup companies that prduce precisely that should be shown the door.

By the same lack of logic that you are spouting, I expect your company to close its doors immediately. You weren't the first company making similar products, and I am sure the companies that were there first would rather not have to share their sales with you.

Seriously, I don't know what company you represent but it seems to me that you have a real fear of competition. If your products fit the perceived values of the consumer better than your competition, you will get sales. If you are not a better perceived value for the customer, they will go somewhere else. The fear of competition is never a good thing.

 

[ronpurvis]

More to the point, when we get to the small scale of .pdf publishing, I do feel it behooves the consumer to make choices that are good for the hobby. Good choices for the hobby mean supporting successes and picking distinct new work.

Actually it behooves the consumer to make choices that are good for them, not what YOU think is good for YOU (what you mean by the industry). When the consumer makes their informed choices that are good for them, it IS GOOD for the industry; even if it is bad for an individual company.

Here's a suggestion: How's about RPGNow segment based on sales? We'll call it the "sink or swim" policy.

You put a .pdf up. It's filed as a new release. If it garners a set, high-ish number of sales, it goes into the "Gaming Gold" (or whatever) category (this is where stuff from Ronin Arts would probably go, it the target number was a good one). If it doesn't, it goes into "New and Notable" (or whatever). When a Gamer's Pick drops below the threshold it goes into a category set up for it. Everything else goes into another, unmourned and unremarkable category.

This creates a core of successful releases and increases the utility of the site stats and shows us who's wearing the trousers (so to speak) in the RPGNow family. Somebody's bound to poke around in the less sales-driven categories (because people do that in *any* entertainment medium). And the words "pro" and "amatuer" don't get used.

I have a better idea. Since you are the one that really like this idea and thinks it is so important, you start another site to sell products the way you think they should be sold. Why should RPGNow have to change their strategy just because you don't want competition?

 

[eyebeams]

By the same lack of logic that you are spouting, I expect your company to close its doors immediately.

I'm a freelancer. Also, cut the insults.

You weren't the first company making similar products, and I am sure the companies that were there first would rather not have to share their sales with you.

Posthuman is designed to work with D20 Modern's existing systems and anything else that uses the standard writeups for cybernetics, genetic modifications and mutations. The idea is that if you buy a grab-bag of new tech that uses the standard writeups, you can plug them into the book. I have no desire to make gamers purchase the same kind of rules multiple times. If a Ronin Arts book (for instance) provides new cyberware using D20 Future's standard, you can plug it into existing stuff in the book.

If it wasn't like that, it wouldn't be worth buying. I have no interest in crowding out successes. I wan't *everyone* to succeed. Making less than labour on a .pdf is not success, though, and businesses that accept this lower the standard for everyone. Currently, for instance, my standard for worthwhile work comes out to a pay rate of roughly US$20 an hour -- less than I'd like, because I'm an awful typist. For work that really interests me, I might take an effective cut.

If you are running a low scale .pdf outfit, ask yourself: Are you looking at things this way? Are you filling an undiscovered or insufficiently explored niche or form of presentation? If the honest answer is "no," then you ought to start exploring non-commerciaal ways to get your ideas out.

By contrast, incidentally, I think that amateur hobby web pages have been in a bit decline over the last few years, and could use a boost. There are still great pages out there (I'm fond of Wayne Peacock's Paleastra setting for instance), but really, there's plenty of territory there for your Olde Dwarven Mine dungeon and PrCs and such.

Seriously, I don't know what company you represent but it seems to me that you have a real fear of competition.

Competition exists between businesses. I don't man my own store and at this point, have no desire to do so. But as a contractor, I am *very* interested in companies doing well and in the hobby being healthy.

If your products fit the perceived values of the consumer better than your competition, you will get sales. If you are not a better perceived value for the customer, they will go somewhere else. The fear of competition is never a good thing.

Ah -- this must be why TV commercials are all sober expositions on the objective merits of a given product, rather than matters of branding and buzz. Or not. Really, really not.

 

[eyebeams]

Absolutely. The number are between 1 and 63. I actually -- personally -- do some products knowing that they won't have huge initial sales. There are some types of products that are slow, steady sellers just as there are some that sell a lot fast and then slow down.

Is there a point where most sales hit a curve?