D&D 5E Rule of Three: 7 Feb. 2014

[RevTurkey]

Hmm. The Fighter and multiple attacks...

A lot of people are calling for Fighters to match Wizards and such in power through martial prowess...incredible feats of heroism and superhuman combat ability..multiple attacks etc

tsh...I say to this.

A powerful wizard should be able to turn a warrior to dust.

Ah but it is a game...and a game needs balance...

Well I always thought the trade off with Wizards being fragile, weak and in constant danger of being squashed at lower levels whilst the Fighter could strut about slaying this and that from behind a tin can always balanced the issue! If you got that weedy wizard up to high level then good for you...go blow some stuff up and enjoy it. Also...fighters have the chance to acquire magic items, weapons and armour that can enhance his abilities and keep him interesting compared to the magical classes. Also...all those levels of roleplaying and help the fighter gave the rest of the group should endear him to his fellow adventurers and be a reward in itself.



(and now...I get told that I am talking bull lol)

 

[ExploderWizard]

Hmm. The Fighter and multiple attacks...

A lot of people are calling for Fighters to match Wizards and such in power through martial prowess...incredible feats of heroism and superhuman combat ability..multiple attacks etc

tsh...I say to this.

A powerful wizard should be able to turn a warrior to dust.

Ah but it is a game...and a game needs balance...

Well I always thought the trade off with Wizards being fragile, weak and in constant danger of being squashed at lower levels whilst the Fighter could strut about slaying this and that from behind a tin can always balanced the issue! If you got that weedy wizard up to high level then good for you...go blow some stuff up and enjoy it. Also...fighters have the chance to acquire magic items, weapons and armour that can enhance his abilities and keep him interesting compared to the magical classes. Also...all those levels of roleplaying and help the fighter gave the rest of the group should endear him to his fellow adventurers and be a reward in itself.



(and now...I get told that I am talking bull lol)

No, not bull. The overall problem is that the design of the game assumes survival to higher levels and also that wizards will gain levels at the same rate as fighters because a fragile character dying and being lower level than another player have been declared unfun.

Once the drawbacks on wizards get removed for being unfun, the whining about how overpowered they are starts.


Thus the only way to fix both issues is to have a SINGLE class called ADVENTURER that can do anything at any time and has superpowers including an aura that doesn't let anyone else be more awesome than them for a single second. Adventurers would get flavor abilities that would mesh with their chosen costume. All players would then get to be fighter/wizard/cleric/rogues and do everything all the time.

Have fun with that. It isn't my cuppa.

 

[mlund]

This doesn't seem like a fair characterizaiton to me. First, we don't know what controls might be in place for high-level wizard spells like Wish. Second, the article mentions that high-level fighters should be able to stand toe-to-toe with a dragon and that they can shrug off death. Sounds like the fighters are going to be the people you want in a fight (go figure) -- that's how they reshape the world.

First, "controls" necessary to keep spells like Wish from breaking game economies are like I outlined: generally cost-prohibitive to reloading every morning - moreso than the XP and GP costs f prior editions.

Second, to make up for the way some of the most ill-conceived spells in D&D history expand a Wizard's in-game power horizontally (beyond simply killing people in battle) by high levels that Wizard would have to be horribly bad at the combat pillar to work out alongside the Fighter - and that's no going to happen.

So we'll need some combination of the ability of the high-level PC Magic-User or Cleric to "warp reality" with their spells getting seriously curbed and the ability of non-casters of similar level to influence the word around them in ways beyond "hit it with sticks harder."

Generally speaking, I think D&D should stick as much as possible to its tradition and make things work better within that tradition, rather than copying games which copied D&D. It might work, but if it strays too far from its roots, it ends up like previous edition.

Yeah, definitely stay away from that Pathfinder stuff. The market doesn't need yet another class-based d20 game that just degenerates into Wizard-wankery at higher levels.

A powerful wizard should be able to turn a warrior to dust.

Ah but it is a game...and a game needs balance...

Yes, so the beginning of handling a game with a shared narrative is discarding the entire premise of one class being outright superior to another at any given level, IMO.

Seriously, D&D doesn't need to sell itself on a naked appeal of "one day you'll be the jock's boss" narratives serving as some sort of coping mechanism for getting your head dunked into a toilet in high-school for being good at math. It doesn't need to make every Single-Protagonist-Focused sci-fi / fantasy novel and every demi-god NPC fit in its player character mechanics (*cough*Elminster*cough*).

It does need to support cooperative game-play and narrative among a diverse selection of races, classes, and adventure scenarios.

Well I always thought the trade off with Wizards being fragile, weak and in constant danger of being squashed at lower levels whilst the Fighter could strut about slaying this and that from behind a tin can always balanced the issue! If you got that weedy wizard up to high level then good for you...go blow some stuff up and enjoy it. Also...fighters have the chance to acquire magic items, weapons and armour that can enhance his abilities and keep him interesting compared to the magical classes. Also...all those levels of roleplaying and help the fighter gave the rest of the group should endear him to his fellow adventurers and be a reward in itself.

Yeah, no. Linear Fighters / Quadratic Wizards is supposed to be dead and stay buried in Next. If appeals to "tradition" and poor game design allow the worst quadratic offenders to creep back into the daily spell lists for casters at higher tiers then Design failed their commitments and 5E is truly a man without a country - neither adding value by fixing the glaring defects of prior editions nor breaking significant new ground.

- Marty Lund

 

[Obryn]

Well, to be dramatic about it, this Rule of Three looks like the kiss of death for my interest in 5th Edition. So Wizards get increasing reality-warping magics (the incidentally destroy the economies of the game system and game world relative to the PCs) and the Grogs get ... extra attacks ...

I think this is where I'm supposed to insert the slow clap sarcastically, right?

That was my reaction, too.

"While your wizard buddies are warping reality and Overcoming Obstacles, you Fighters get ... extra attacks."

It wouldn't be so bad if the kinds special moves Fighters get weren't so tepid.

e: and can you stop saying so much stuff I agree with? It sucks to not be able to XP you.

 

[Falling Icicle]

This is what I said about this topic on the WotC boards:

The problem I have is that some classes get to be good in all three tiers of play (combat, exploration and interaction), while fighters get to excel in only one, and get absolutely nothing for the other two. Wizards, clerics and druids, for example, can excel in all three, depending on their spell selection. Rangers are superb in combat and exploration. Rogues are decent in combat and really good at the other two. Etc.

Some people might argue that this is "balance," but there are some problems with that argument. First, every class gets to do well in combat. Are fighters really that much better at combat than, say, paladins or rangers or wizards? No, they're not. The second, and biggest problem, is that trying to balance across pillars is bad game design. Not every adventure, campaign, gaming group, etc. is going to place equal emphasis on each of the three pillars. Some will feature much more combat. Some will have little combat and tons of roleplaying. Without giving each class at least a minimal degree of competence in all three pillars, you're unfairly punishing those who play certain classes in certain types of adventures or game styles.

I'm not suggesting that every class needs to be 100% equal in all three pillars. All I'm saying is that each class needs to be able to be at least competent and have something interesting and fun to offer in all three. Just becuase a class has the name "fighter" doesn't mean it has to be all about fighting. I can think of thematic areas that fit within its niche that help in the other two pillars. Fighters could excel at standing watch and noticing danger, and feats of athletic prowess to help them in the exploration pillar. They could excel at intimidation, leadership, and inspiration for the social pillar. IMO, there's just no excuse for making a 1-dimensional, shallow class that can only do something interesting in combat, and gets to spend the other 2/3 of the game bored with nothing meaningful to contribute.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Hmm. The Fighter and multiple attacks...

A lot of people are calling for Fighters to match Wizards and such in power through martial prowess...incredible feats of heroism and superhuman combat ability..multiple attacks etc

tsh...I say to this.

A powerful wizard should be able to turn a warrior to dust.

Why? Is it just because the wizard has magic and the fighter doesn't? Because I don't buy that excuse, at all. Magic has costs, limitations, and weaknesses of its own. It's not an invincible super power and having it doesn't make one a god. Plus, people don't give fighters nearly enough credit. A fighter is not just the poor guy who swings a sword while his friends get to reshape reality with their might. He's not the pitiful BX bandit aside the angel summoner. At higher levels, he's an epic hero. He's Beowulf, Achilles, Heracles, or Miyamoto Musashi. His prowess in combat is such that he wrestles dragons into submission and wins duels against arch fiends. If anything, the wizard has good reason to fear him.

 

[Obryn]

It's the same old thing D&D has struggled with for a whole lot of its existence. When a Fighter Fights, and a Thief Skills, the Wizard and Cleric "do magic." And in D&D, "magic" is about the broadest category imaginable.

 

[ren1999]

There should be 4 classes.
Dedicated Martial/1d12hp and damage/up to plate/martial feats
Skilled Class/1d10hp and damage/up to leather/higher than proficient
Mixed Martial Casting/1d8hp and damage/up to chain/healing and charm prayers
Dedicated Casting/1d6hp and damage/1d12 spell damage/area spells

Multi-Classing.
If a dedicated Martial character wants to cast a spell, they move to the Mixed class table for all future hp and damage. They must take off the plate for chain. Etc.
If Casters want to swing a sword, they go to the 1d8 table and they loose the 1d12 damage for spells and the spells lose the area effect.

When all classes gain levels, they can choose from this list.
increase range accuracy and damage
increase melee accuracy and damage
increase hit points
increase armor class through dodge practice
decrease armor penalties
increase an ability by +2
increase initiative
learn a new skill, feat or spell according to class
increase above proficiency +5 in skills of their class
increase +1 action per turn
increase +1 reaction per turn
increase resistance to damage or poison or charm etc.

 

[Stormonu]

I'm not for a Tome of Battle solution, but fighters certainly should gain (or have the option to acquire) abilities other than knocking heads together. And that's really where he got the shaft in 3E. The fighter should shine and be fearsome in combat - and be at least able to get by outside the combat ring. Fighters who can't talk their way out of paper bags, circumvent traps or take on other obstacles should be rare and a result of the player having knowingly sacrificed those options.

Wizards and Clerics got too much free reign in 3E, and then beat down into the ground to their knees in 4E. D&D could still use the higher level spells for effects, but it needs to make sure those game-changing spells come with a cost (and not just in GP) that makes their use a rare and wondrous thing. Look at how hard it is for a wizard to have Wish in 1E or 2E for example - you'd have to have a minimum 18 intelligence (by RAW, a 1 in 216 chance, even harder if you did 3d6 in order) , and there were no bonus to stats for levels. Nor were there magic items that you could expect to reliably increase intelligence you could acquire by adventuring. Then, there's simply the matter of surviving long enough to get it. Top it off with acquiring or researching the spell to get it into your spellbook; I don't remember wizards automatically getting new spells when they leveled in 1E or 2E. And after all of that, every casting takes your human wizard out of action for 2-8 days (if not more as decided by the DM) - because elves can't reach the required level to cast the darn thing. Granted, all that combines to be pretty harsh - a bit overly harsh, I think. But what happened to spellcasting in 3E went too far in the other direction.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

A powerful wizard should be able to turn a warrior to dust.

Yeah, becauseremember all those old myths where the tough strong guy got his rear end handed to him by the caster guy? I mean, there was Conan where...wait, he beat the snot out of caster guys....uh..

Oh hey, but what about all those greek myths. Surely there were plenty of..wait no, all the greek heroes are big tough guys who beat up sorcerors.

Also...fighters have the chance to acquire magic items, weapons and armour that can enhance his abilities and keep him interesting compared to the magical classes.

Magic items that the Wizard could also obtain, much easier than the Fighter because he's actually able to craft his own.

Also...all those levels of roleplaying and help the fighter gave the rest of the group should endear him to his fellow adventurers and be a reward in itself.

You realize roleplaying has nothing to do with class right? Wizard players can roleplay just as well as Fighter players, but they also get a whole bunch of fun toys in addition to that.