rule question: dual-implement spellcaster

[evilbob]

As this directly affects the feats my character will take: how does this group feel about the Dual Implement Spellcaster feat? Specifically: can you wield a single staff in two hands and gain the benefit of this feat?

Actually, since this group likes options, how's this:

A) Wielding a staff in two hands gains the off-hand benefit.

B) You can wield a staff in two hands, but you need the Staff Fighting feat to gain the off-hand benefit. (B2: a different feat works)

C) You can't gain the off-hand benefit from wielding a staff in two hands.


For reference, the character builder works using option A. However, there is also a bug in the character builder regarding this exact feat, so it is slightly inconclusive. I wrote Cust. Serv. and they gave the unworldly response that it was working as intended with option A (I didn't mention the bug at that time because I didn't realize it).

 

[renau1g]

I don't really like Option A as you only need to buy 1 magic implement vs say wands where you need to have two of them. There's a fairly substantial cost to having the second implement for PC's and getting to circumvent that is a huge boon for staff-wielders. What about swordmages, would the same thing happen if they used free action to take their sword in two hands, then as a free action to switch back to one hand?

I would rule Option C.

 

[stonegod]

Staffs-as-implements have been repeatedly ruled as usable one-handed, I pretty sure. They can't be staff-as-weapons except as two-handed.

 

[Oni]

Hurm....technically I could see option B working, but it depends on how you interpret the rules.

The way I see it, casters that can use staffs as implements means they are able to use the weapon group staffs as implements, quarterstaffs are a subgroup of that weapon group, so as long as they have Staff Fighting and are using a quarterstaff or a weapon or implement that can be treated as a quarterstaff then it should count as two weapons (and thus two implements since staffs are weapon/implements) as per the double weapon rules.

Basically if a swordmage would be allowed to use Dual Implement Spellcaster with a double sword, then a wizard or what have you should be able to use it in conjunction with Staff Fighting IMHO.

 

[stonegod]

Point the first: Staff = quarterstaff. There is no difference. (Ref: Glossary, Staff in PH)

Point the second: Staffs are one handed implement, two handed weapons. (Ref: EPG, pg. 113 [Errata])

Point the third: You can hold two staffs (one in each hand).

Point the fourth: Thus, Dual implement spellcasting works with staffs RAW.

Staff Fighting does not affect the use of the staff as an implement (it only affects its use as a weapon since all the double-weapon properties only apply to weapon attacks per the errata'd and PH3 rules). This is also the case with swordmages and double-swords (being a double sword is a weapon property, not a property of the implement); dual implement does not apply.

Thus, there is no reason to vote on a proposal unless L4W wants to change this from RAW.

 

[evilbob]

stonegod: You put forth a lot of points but I lost your conclusion. Were you agreeing roughly with A or C?

 

[stonegod]

C. You need two staffs, not one staff wielded in two hands.

 

[evilbob]

So if a wizard took the Staff Fighting feat, would you believe that they got a +1 to AC (defensive property of quarterstaff)? Forgive me but I just did not really follow your argument through to the end.


I have to say, I have posted this question on many, MANY boards, and so far pretty much everyone else has picked A or B, and the character builder itself uses A (altho, again: it's buggy, and hardly definitive). And yes: option A does favor staff wizards over orbs/wands/etc. quite handily (then again, so does the Staff of Ruin, which is arguably the best implement in the game).

Looking back at some of the errata, it's a hard case to call. One point of contention is whether or not the off-hand property works with this feat. This section of the new errata (bold by me) is relavent:

Using a Weapon as an Implement: If you’re able to use a weapon as an implement, the weapon works like a normal implement for you, but you use neither the weapon’s proficiency bonus nor its nonmagical weapon properties with your implement powers.

So, you can't use the "off-hand property" (as it is a non-magical weapon property) with implement powers when you take the Staff Fighting feat: gotcha. But the off-hand property isn't being applied to implement powers - it is being applied to holding an implement in your off-hand. Clearly, you are holding an implement; clearly, this implement has the off-hand property; does that mean you are "wielding a magic implement in each hand"? Or does the staff - as an implement - not gain the off-hand property (i.e. the "off-hand property" only applies to the staff when wielded as a weapon)? If not, why not?

Additionally, there is a case to be made for not requiring the feat: holding a staff 2-handed seems like "wielding a magic implement in each hand", although the "Staffs are one handed implement, two handed weapons", if completely exclusive, would shut that down pretty well (stonegod, what book/errata were you quoting with that?).

 

[stonegod]

The point of wielding a staff one handed is from the errata on the Eberron Player's Guide (as cited by me above): "The staff is a one handed implement ... a quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon".

The PH3 also clarifies things (which I didn't see before):

If you can use a staff as an implement, you follow the normal rules for implements... You can use melee weapon powers through a staff. When you do so, the staff functions as a magic quarterstaff.

There is a definite separation of the staff's role as weapon and implement. Staff Fighting affects only its use as a weapon ("the quarterstaff") as double weapons "are like having a weapon in each hand."

A staff is an implement first, a weapon second. When using it as a weapon (which you must if it is a double "weapon"), it is a weapon:

A few implements, like a staff, are expressly usable as both implements and weapons. When you wield such implements as a weapon, you follow the normal rules for using a weapon.

A single staff is a single implement; a quarterstaff with Staff Fighting is a dual weapon but still a single implement.

Note, a sorcerer wielding two daggers or a swordmage wielding a double sword (contrary to what I posted earlier after my reading) does gain Dual Implement bonuses since they are using Weapons that can be treated as implements. Staffs are the only implement that can be treated as an weapon and the distinction does not seem to be symmetric.

 

[elecgraystone]

It's option B. Each end is a weapon and staff weapons ARE implements. That's why you can have a flaming staff (weapon) and use it's powers. Any staff works as an implement and each end counts as a weapon.

For you that do not think this is right, turn on your CB. Make a human wizard with a 13 WIS and a 13 DEX. Give them staff fighting and dual implement. Buy them a +1 weapon staff and equip it in both hands. Now look at the damage for any spell. You'll see a +1 from the off hand of the staff. I'm surprised that they got THIS right and messed up so many other weapon/implement issues...