rule question: dual-implement spellcaster

[covaithe]

For you that do not think this is right, turn on your CB. Make a human wizard with a 13 WIS and a 13 DEX. Give them staff fighting and dual implement. Buy them a +1 weapon staff and equip it in both hands. Now look at the damage for any spell. You'll see a +1 from the off hand of the staff. I'm surprised that they got THIS right and messed up so many other weapon/implement issues...

Far more likely is that they got this wrong, too. Yet another nail in the coffin of the idea of using CB blocks as math sections.

If you hold onto a single magic wand with two hands, do you get double the enhancement bonus to damage? No. If you hold onto a magic sword with two hands, do you get double enhancement bonus to damage? No. Does a bard with a two-handed instrument suddenly get double damage for taking the dual implement feat? No.

Dual implement spellcaster requires two separate implements. IMO it can never be used to get the bonus from a single implement twice.

 

[elecgraystone]

Those are misleading examples covaithe. Swordmage using a double sword is using 2 weapons per RAW and those weapons are implements. The thing is that staffs are both weapons and implements. You can't seperate them, it's always both. Allowing it to be used as 2 weapons is the same as allowing it to be to implements.

The double weapon rule that gives the same enchantment to both ends of it applies, so both ends of a staff act as a staff with the enchantment. If I have a flaming staff, it's magic on both ends right? A +1 staff gives that bonus to both ends right? And both ends are a staff right? And staves are implements right?

Bottom line weapon staves act as implements. Both ends are magical (per double weapon rules) and are staves. Please point out anything that I've said that isn't right.

"Dual implement spellcaster requires two separate implements. IMO it can never be used to get the bonus from a single implement twice." Then how do you explain a swordmage with a double sword? Why does he get two weapon fighting bonus to damage when he's only holding the double sword? The answer to that is the same answer as why a staff gets it's bonus from dual implement feat. The staff is NEVER only an implement anymore than a longsword is ONLY a weapon. Both are weapons AND implements at the same time.

And I admit I was loathe to use CB as an example. I feel slightly dirty using it but it's the only example I know of that shows how this works.

 

[renau1g]

My interpretation of it also sides with covaithe/stonegod. Rationale is that you can wield two staffs, previously the ol' Staff of Ruin offhand. If you can't wield two implements then yes I'd agree with you elec, but the swordmage can't wield two double swords.

I actually don't understand why someone wielding a staff should feel entitled to the DIS (dual implement spellcaster) feat by switching their grip on the staff, but the wand/orb/dagger/longsword/every other implement user can't. The cost to the feat (which is very powerful) is that the PC has to buy two implements, meaning usually one of their other "big three" slots suffer.

 

[evilbob]

The point of wielding a staff one handed is from the errata on the Eberron Player's Guide (as cited by me above): "The staff is a one handed implement ... a quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon".

Ok, I see it now. But that seems almost a bit of a stretch, tho. That section is talking about component traits. It's hard for me to see how that applies broadly to something different.

I hear what you're saying about implement vs. weapon, and I agree with you: there is a separation of weapon powers and implement powers. I think this was done to prevent power abuse (blood claw staffs or something like that). The thing is, I am having a hard time seeing how that applies to this feat, because they feat is just asking "do you have an implement in each hand?" And when a staff with the Staff Fighting feat gains the off-hand property, even if you're saying that the off-hand property only applies to weapon powers, it still means that you are wielding an item with the off-hand property - which means it has two ends, and each one is its own thing. And while technically each "end" is a weapon, you're still not using a "weapon power" from each end - you're using each end as an implement. How is this different from "a swordmage wielding a double sword"?


re: elecgraystone

I agree with your points, but before you get too far in using the character builder as a source, let me explain the bug.

Create a wizard as instructed, and give him a +3 staff and Dual Impl. Spell. and Staff Fighting. Look at an at-will: he gets a +3 off-hand bonus to damage - check. Now remove the Staff Fighting feat. He still gets a +3 bonus to damage. Curiouser and curiouser. But maybe it's because he is using the staff 2-handed? But now, give him a +1 orb (or whatever) in his off-hand. This should change the off-hand damage to +1, right? But it remains +3. You can give him anything in his off-hand and he will stay with the same off-hand damage as the main hand's enhancement bonus - all he needs is the Dual Impl. Spell. feat.

So yeah, it's bugged. And therefore inconclusive.

 

[evilbob]

My interpretation of it also sides with covaithe/stonegod. Rationale is that you can wield two staffs, previously the ol' Staff of Ruin offhand. If you can't wield two implements then yes I'd agree with you elec, but the swordmage can't wield two double swords.

I actually don't understand why someone wielding a staff should feel entitled to the DIS (dual implement spellcaster) feat by switching their grip on the staff, but the wand/orb/dagger/longsword/every other implement user can't. The cost to the feat (which is very powerful) is that the PC has to buy two implements, meaning usually one of their other "big three" slots suffer.

But a swordmage can wield a sword in two hands using a double weapon. And so why should the swordmage get to benefit from this feat when the wizard can't?

And the "cost" of using DIS with a staff is... another feat. Based on how you value things, money vs. a feat slot is a difficult trade-off.

 

[renau1g]

The cost of the swordmage is a huge drop in his shielding thingie too, dropping to +1 from +3 & 2 feats, 1 for double sword +1 for DIS. (same as a wizard who needs the staff-fighting feat, but don't lose sight of that)

 

[evilbob]

+1 back for the defensive property of the weapon.

And let's not forget sorcs, invokers, psions, and everyone else who can use a staff implement. This isn't "staff wizards vs. everyone" - it's anyone who can use a staff.

Edit: Oh man. How would this work for monks? They can use quarterstaff weapons as implements... Too much... Brain melting...

 

[renau1g]

Yeah but he has to look stupid like a Darth Maul wannabe, that should be enough to deter anyone

I mean who wants to be this kid?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPPj6viIBmU]YouTube - Star Wars Kid[/ame]

 

[stonegod]

1. Flaming staff doesn't affect this argument (we know magic powers translate across weapon/implement boundaries).

2. As pointed out, neither does the CB affect the argument. Its can be potential corroboration, but its not a rule decider.

3. Both ends of a double staff are magic and weapons. Not implements (the entire staff is an implement; being a double weapon is a quality of the weapon).

4. The EPG errata is just pointing out (again) the one handed implement/two-handed weapon thing. Its only brought up for components as they said a staff can be embedded but had to clarify only as an implement (as it is always a two-handed weapon).

As for other (non-arcane) staff implement users: Doesn't affect them as DIS only works for arcane casters.

While there is significant overlaps in a weapon-implement in both roles, there are boundaries between them. If they were exactly the same, then we wouldn't be talking about not including prof bonuses and other mundane weapon properties.

That's my reading.

 

[evilbob]

So, just sorcs and wizards, then.

Also: I don't mean to be pushy, but what is your take on the +1 AC from the defensive property of the staff/quarterstaff with the Staff Fighting feat when the staff is used as an implement? Just curious.


What WotC really needs to do is qualify it definitively; the whole "staffs are the exact same thing as quarterstaves except oh wait maybe they aren't" is extremely confusing. I'm serious about the monk question above... I have no idea where that will go before it is all over.