Rules for Rogues using Hide and Sneak

[DarkelvenSFi]

I've got a Rogue character who's fairly high level, and eventually wants to move into the shadowdancer class.

He's upset because his main 'sneak attack' ability can rarely be used in our (fairly) large scale combat situations. He's played too much World of Warcraft, and cannot get it into his head that he is unable to 'go into Hide' when in an open playing field (such as a desert).

If he sneak attacks one person, he tries to argue his way into getting a second and third sneak attack on different foes during the one round. So far, I've been rolling to see if they spot him and making a call based on the result.

But overall, I'm unsure of how this is meant to work.

So the short of my questions are:

Can a rogue make a sneak attack, and then Hide in the next round (whether in plain sight or by passing behind an object)? And what are the limitations of this; eg, If I see someone step behind a box, surely I'm expecting him to come back out eventually (it's not like I'll somehow not see him walk back out).
When is a rogue effectively no longer hiding; is it an enemy by enemy basis, or if one person sees him, that person would/could tell his companions?
Can a rogue make several sneak attacks against different opponents in the one round?
How would two weapon fighting come into this; two sneak attacks against one opponent?
Would the DC rating of poisons increase by hitting a vital organ?

Ok, I'll leave it there for now. Please feel free to include any additional details you can. I'm trying to give him every advantage, without allowing him to break the rules (and end up with 3 high damage poisoned attacks each round).

 

[Vegepygmy]

An entry from the 3.5 FAQ may be helpful to you (and sorry for the poor formatting):

Can a character with Spring Attack who begins her
turn hidden move up to a foe, attack him, then return to a
position of hiding? Is she considered to be hiding (that is,
invisible to the foe) when she makes the attack? What if the
character has the camouflage or hide in plain sight class
features?​

Normally, a character can’t make a Hide check right after
attacking a foe, since that foe’s attention is now focused on her
(even if the attacker started her turn hidden or invisible). The
sniping option (on page 76 in the ​

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​

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Player’s Handbook) allows a
character to make a move action to hide immediately after
making a ranged attack against a foe at least 10 feet away, but
this doesn’t apply to melee attacks (even those made with
reach). Even if the character has Spring Attack, she simply
can’t make a Hide check while she is being observed.
As far as your second question goes, unless the character’s
approach remains entirely in an area where she can hide (that
is, an area with sufficient cover or concealment to attempt a
Hide check), the character is not considered to be hidden still
when she makes the attack. Conceivably, your character might
begin her turn hidden in overgrowth, move up through the
undergrowth to attack a target, then move back to a hiding
place within the plants, having never left the area of
concealment. In this case, she’d be considered hidden when she
made the attack, although she’d have a –20 penalty on her Hide
check.
The third part of your question changes the situation
entirely. Separately, both the camouflage and hide in plain sight
class features make this tactic more useful, but together, they’re
incredibly effective.
A character with the hide in plain sight class feature
(described on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook) can make a
Hide check even if she’s being observed. This doesn’t require
any extra action to accomplish (unlike the sniping maneuver).
The character could attack a foe, then move to a place with
sufficient cover or concealment to allow a Hide check, making
the Hide check as part of movement. The character doesn’t​

need Spring Attack to pull this off, although that feat would

allow her to move (potentially from a place of hiding, although
that’s not necessary), make an attack, and then move again to a
place of hiding. Still, unless the character has cover or
concealment for her approach, she’s not considered to be
hidden when she delivers the attack.
The camouflage class feature (also on page 48 in the​

Player’s Handbook​

​

​

​

​

) allows the character to make a Hide check
in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t provide cover or
concealment. This means that the character could begin hidden,
move up to a target across open terrain, and make an attack
while still being considered hidden (although she’d still suffer
the –20 penalty on her Hide check). Even if the character has
Spring Attack and moves away after the attack, she can’t make
a Hide check to hide after the attack.
Put all three of these elements together—such as in the
hands of a high-level sneaky ranger—and here’s what you get:
1. The character begins his turn hidden (as long as he’s in
natural terrain, he doesn’t even need cover or concealment).
2. He moves up to a foe across natural terrain and makes an
attack (making a Hide check with a –20 penalty to be
considered hiding when he attacks).
3. He then moves back from the foe and makes a new Hide
check to disappear from view (again, he doesn’t need cover or
concealment while in natural terrain).​

4. The foe then, if still standing, says, “Hey, what hit me?!”

 

[DarkelvenSFi]

Thanks for the response. So it seems that the Rogue can make a sneak attack, but suffers a -20 on the Hide check when doing so. This seems more fair. I'd not previously heard of this. Is this just for melee attacks, or can he get away with ranged attacks without the penalty?

The 'hide in plain sight' doesn't mean what our Rogue thinks it means. He's assuming that he can stand anywhere and somehow become unnoticed; where your post seems to say that he still needs something to hide in (such as a bush, or behind a box). The focus is on the being observed, rather than not needing something to hide behind.

I'm still unsure of whether the Rogue gets multiple sneak attacks on the one target in the same round. Does the first attack negate the 'Hiding'. I would assume so, and have 'enforced' this rule in our game. But he's then opted to attack different enemies saying, "they haven't noticed me yet".

And then there's the two weapon fighting. I know that a druid/rogue can change shape into an octopus and get the eight sneak attacks (8 limbs) against an opponent, but does this also apply for a Rogue making a sneak attack with two weapons?

Thanks in advance for the replies.

 

[FEADIN]

Note that you can Hide in plain sight in shadows (concealment).
As said if you attack you get a -20 on the hide check, even for melee (see hide skill) but if you can catch your opponent flat footed or without his dexterity bonus, you can sneak attack him at least with your two weapons striking simultaneously but don't forget the -20 on the hide check and that hiding is at least part of a move action.
More subtil: You can try to hide behind an opponent (with hide in plain sight) to surprise another one.

 

[risner]

Rogue can make a sneak attack, but suffers a -20 on the Hide check when doing so. Is this just for melee attacks, or can he get away with ranged attacks without the penalty?

I'm still unsure of whether the Rogue gets multiple sneak attacks on the one target in the same round. Does the first attack negate the 'Hiding'.

-20 is for melee and ranged, and it also requires either a move action to hide (sniping) or as part of a move action (melee.)

You get multiple precision damage on any full attack ONLY if the thing providing the precision is still present. Attacking from a hidden position reveals your presence, so you would not be able to get multiple sneak attacks (even on different targets) if you got sneak from the hidden position.

 

[roguerouge]

You ARE letting him get his sneak attack damage in flanking and flat-footed situations, right? Anyone he attacks in the first round of combat before they go, each attack should be a sneak attack. Each attack when he has an ally on the other side of the opponent, he should be getting all attacks with his sneak attack bonus. I've never heard of a rogue not getting many sneak attacks in 3rd edition.

 

[Vegepygmy]

The 'hide in plain sight' doesn't mean what our Rogue thinks it means. He's assuming that he can stand anywhere and somehow become unnoticed; where your post seems to say that he still needs something to hide in (such as a bush, or behind a box). The focus is on the being observed, rather than not needing something to hide behind.

Precisely. All "hide in plain sight" does is allow you to Hide even when someone is watching you, but you still need something to Hide yourself in or behind.

I'm still unsure of whether the Rogue gets multiple sneak attacks on the one target in the same round. Does the first attack negate the 'Hiding'.

Yep.

I would assume so, and have 'enforced' this rule in our game. But he's then opted to attack different enemies saying, "they haven't noticed me yet".

Nice try on his part, but no. Sticking a sword in someone's guts tends to draw a lot of attention to you.

And then there's the two weapon fighting. I know that a druid/rogue can change shape into an octopus and get the eight sneak attacks (8 limbs) against an opponent, but does this also apply for a Rogue making a sneak attack with two weapons?

A rogue gets to apply sneak attack damage on any attack in which (1) his target is flanked, or (2) his target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. So all you have to do is ask yourself, for each attack, is one of those conditions in effect?

So if the target is flat-footed because it hasn't acted in combat yet, the rogue is going to get multiple sneak attack damage. First attack: target is denied Dex bonus to AC, so sneak attack applies. Second attack: target is still denied Dex bonus to AC, so sneak attack still applies.

If the rogue is invisible because of an invisibility spell, the first attack breaks the invisibility spell. So first attack: rogue is invisible, so target is denied Dex bonus to AC, so sneak attack applies. Second attack: rogue is no longer invisible, so target is not denied Dex bonus to AC, so sneak attack does not apply. Greater invisibility would change that (since attacking doesn't end the spell). Second attack: rogue is still invisible, so target is still denied Dex bonus to AC, so sneak attack still applies. Hiding follows the same principle, and works like mere invisibility (attacking reveals your presence) rather than greater invisibility.

 

[DarkelvenSFi]

A rogue gets to apply sneak attack damage on any attack in which (1) his target is flanked, or (2) his target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. So all you have to do is ask yourself, for each attack, is one of those conditions in effect?

Nice work. That's exactly what I need to explain to him.

You ARE letting him get his sneak attack damage in flanking and flat-footed situations, right?

Yes, he's taken to throwing down a staff of the python (turns into a snake) behind his main foe to gain the flanking. Now he's after any other summoning magical items he can get his hands on; to sacrifice each time he wants to make his flanking sneak attacks.

 

[aboyd]

You can also do a feint (combat action in PHB) to deny an enemy's dexterity bonus, and then gain more sneak attacks with no need to hide. Feinting is actually pretty easy to accomplish if you decide to put a few points into bluff.

Also, stunning/blinding enemies will allow for sneak attacks with no need for hiding. Druids can do sand blast spells (SpC) which stun, and some black-tar-spit spell which blinds with no save. I can't remember the name of it. Both spells are only 1st or 2nd level. Clerics can do a Sound Blast spell which stuns for 1 round. I think it's 3rd level, which kinda sucks to have to use such a high-level spell for the effect, but it does make it more difficult for the enemy to make his/her saving throw.

 

[risner]

You can also do a feint (combat action in PHB) to deny an enemy's dexterity bonus

Feint is a standard (or move with Improved Feint) so no multiple attacks a round.

Stormwrack had a PrC with Feint as a swift x/day.