"Rules: Saiyans" by Anubis

[Shains]

Goku Vs. Gohan

IIRC you stated something about "mystic" gohan being less powerful than someone of ssj3 status. I immediately felt the need (and want) to voice my opinion. I believe that mystic gohan was vastly more powerful than goku when he was in he ssj3 form. For a few obvious reasons, like the fact that goku says that gohan no longer needs my help after buu loses gotenks' power due to them unfusing. As well as the Dai-kaoshin stating gohan was of equivalent power of a ssj6! I will debate this further and would like to as well, though this is hardly the time or the place.

p.s. Does anyone have a dragonball message board site. After planetnamek closed down so long ago I've been left without one

 

[Anubis]

Re: Goku Vs. Gohan

IIRC you stated something about "mystic" gohan being less powerful than someone of ssj3 status. I immediately felt the need (and want) to voice my opinion. I believe that mystic gohan was vastly more powerful than goku when he was in he ssj3 form. For a few obvious reasons, like the fact that goku says that gohan no longer needs my help after buu loses gotenks' power due to them unfusing. As well as the Dai-kaoshin stating gohan was of equivalent power of a ssj6! I will debate this further and would like to as well, though this is hardly the time or the place.

p.s. Does anyone have a dragonball message board site. After planetnamek closed down so long ago I've been left without one

Ah, a fellow mourner of Planet Namek, eh? I used to go there all the time, great site. Try going to the following site, it's got a decent message board, although the site itself isn't near as good as Planet Namek was. (Gotta go with what we can get, I suppose.)

http://www.shadowsofnamek.com/

Moving on . . . As for Mystic Super Saiyan, I'm only going on the information I have found elsewhere on the internet.

One site that does list Mystic Super Saiyan Gohan as being more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, however, also lists Super Buu as being more powerful than Kid Buu, which is just silly, as Kid Buu was THE most powerful incarnation, by the admission of all those involved.

A lot of other sites list Super Saiyan 3 Goku as actually being the third strongest being in the series behind Kid Buu and Super Saiyan Vegeto.

To be perfectly honest, I have NO IDEA what to believe on this issue, and opinions are very widely varied. Actually, this is part of the reason I decided to exclude Mystic Super Saiyan in my conversion, along with all other "variable" forms. I stuck to what could be pretty easily figured out.

On a side note, I am preparing to remove ALL Dragonball GT material from the conversion. The primary reason for this is because there are quite a few rumors that Akira Toriyama may soon continue Dragonball. (Others have said this refers ONLY to reprinting the old stuff, but there is much evidence to the contrary, and only time will tell what will actually happen.) As such, because Akira Toriyama has not officially acknowleged GT as a legitimate part of the Dragonball universe, I will be removing the Super Saiyan 4 and Golden Oozaru conversions out of respect to his creation.

Anyway, that all from me for now.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Looks like:

Saiyan +5 ECL
Oozaru +11 ECL

You need two different ECLs/CRs since the Saiyan can't change form at will into its alter ego.

Perhaps the solution is to make it +6 ECL overall - since the Oozaru will be of limited effectiveness (1 in 10 days; 3 out of 30)?

 

[Anubis]

Hi Anubis mate!

Looks like:

Saiyan +5 ECL
Oozaru +11 ECL

You need two different ECLs/CRs since the Saiyan can't change form at will into its alter ego.

Perhaps the solution is to make it +6 ECL overall - since the Oozaru will be of limited effectiveness (1 in 10 days; 3 out of 30)?

Wow, only 5 or 6? Even considering the monk abilities and power adaptation?

You did see this part, right?

"Monk Abilities (Ex): Saiyans attack as monks, using the monk's favorable number of attacks per round, as well as dealing damage as a monk of a level equal to the sum of the Saiyan's hit HD and levels. Saiyans also gain the benefits of the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat, as well as access to the monk's Flurry of Blows and Stunning Attack, and they gain the Stunning Fist feat for free. In addition to monk attack forms, Saiyans gain a bonus to their AC as monks of a level equal to the sum of the Saiyan's HD and levels, including a Wisdom bonus to AC whenever applicable."



As for Oozaru form, that indeed HAS given me A LOT of trouble. In my campaign, a (NPC) Saiyan in Oozaru form was able to defeat a (PC) Quasi-deity Fighter 1, a (NPC) Sacred Fist 16, and a (NPC) Sorcerer 16 with ease. Lots more power than the normal form, but with VERY limited usefulness.

Do you have any balanced ideas on how to judge CR and ECL given that situation? Can you really give a creature two different CRs based on different forms? This is what has confused me and why I asked for your help, but of course you have probably guessed that by now. Really, I never thought that 60+ strength could tilt a battle so much!

By the way, thanks for checking this out and helping me with perfecting everything. Do you have any ideas on how I could make the Saiyans CR/ECL 10? That's what my goal has been, so that's what I'd like to make it.



Anyway, I just make sure everything is clear and that I triple-check everything.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Wow, only 5 or 6? Even considering the monk abilities and power adaptation?

You did see this part, right?

"Monk Abilities (Ex): Saiyans attack as monks, using the monk's favorable number of attacks per round, as well as dealing damage as a monk of a level equal to the sum of the Saiyan's hit HD and levels. Saiyans also gain the benefits of the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat, as well as access to the monk's Flurry of Blows and Stunning Attack, and they gain the Stunning Fist feat for free. In addition to monk attack forms, Saiyans gain a bonus to their AC as monks of a level equal to the sum of the Saiyan's HD and levels, including a Wisdom bonus to AC whenever applicable."

I may have initially glazed over that portion too quickly.

Seemingly you could well just give them Monk Levels equal to their Hit Dice?

Its a difficult one to rate.

Maybe 6.5 (Saiyan) and 12 (Oozaru)

As for Oozaru form, that indeed HAS given me A LOT of trouble.

I can imagine.

In my campaign, a (NPC) Saiyan in Oozaru form was able to defeat a (PC) Quasi-deity Fighter 1, a (NPC) Sacred Fist 16, and a (NPC) Sorcerer 16 with ease.

How?

I must be missing something?

Do you have any balanced ideas on how to judge CR and ECL given that situation?

Can you really give a creature two different CRs based on different forms?

I don't see why not - especially when the forms are unbalanced.

If anything Saiyan is a humanoid race inflicted with the lycanthropy of the Oozaru form.

This is what has confused me and why I asked for your help, but of course you have probably guessed that by now. Really, I never thought that 60+ strength could tilt a battle so much!

Are you sure the Oozaru is Colossal, if memory serves me correct I don't remember them being more than maybe Huge size; I could be wrong here - you know what my memory is like!

By the way, thanks for checking this out and helping me with perfecting everything. Do you have any ideas on how I could make the Saiyans CR/ECL 10? That's what my goal has been, so that's what I'd like to make it.

No problem mate - although you are the expert on all things DragonballZ.

 

[Shains]

Re: Re: Goku Vs. Gohan

Ah, a fellow mourner of Planet Namek, eh? I used to go there all the time, great site. Try going to the following site, it's got a decent message board, although the site itself isn't near as good as Planet Namek was. (Gotta go with what we can get, I suppose.)

http://www.shadowsofnamek.com/

One site that does list Mystic Super Saiyan Gohan as being more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, however, also lists Super Buu as being more powerful than Kid Buu, which is just silly, as Kid Buu was THE most powerful incarnation, by the admission of all those involved.

Hmmm... You were at PN to? That's cool. thanks alot for the url I love debating issues liek these all over the place but when it closed I just bottled it all up inside.

Now to the gohan vs. goku, Super buu IS acctually more powerful than kid buu (IMO, no one, save for Akira, is sure on that one) I mean super buu had the power of piccolo, goten, trunks, gohan, fat buu, and the origional skinny buu. Kid buu had...Kid buu. Also Goku HAD to fuse to smack around super buu, while kid buu didn't appear to be immensly stronger than SSj3 goku. Also the dai-kaoshin only said that kid buu was the strongest because that's the one that he was the strongest HE had seen. And don't foget when gohan had first shown off his power goku was amazed, all of this is from memory from the manga as iirc they haven't got to that episode on toonami (I just pray they don't butcher it).

Well considering this isn't the DBZ board I probably should debate this further there, so just to stay on D&D, Great work they run smooth everything looks pretty balanced, and again thanks for the url.

 

[Anubis]

Hmmm . . . Wow . . . That's a pretty low estimation . . .

UK, I don't suppose you could break it down with your ECL system for me, and/or point out where I am going wrong on the following listing?

Here is how I calculated everything:

8 Shapechanger HD = ECL +4
Monk Abilities = ECL +2
Oozaru Form = ECL +2
Power Adaptation = ECL +1
Tail Weakness = ECL -1
Ability Scores +22 = ECL +2

Anyway, that's how I came up with the original CR 10/ECL +10. To explain . . . The Hit Dice are easily enough explained, of course. I figured the Monk Abilities were worth AT LEAST two character levels considering they improve no matter what class the Saiyan takes. As for the Oozaru Form, considering the limited usefulness, I rated it equal to the Monk Abilities. Power Adaptaion and Tail Weakness balance each other any which way. The Ability Scores are pretty darn high, which is why I gave it +2, because that is what a creature would get for getting that big of an increase in power, especially with the increases coming in Str and Con, the two most useful Ability Scores.

Anyway, lemme know where I'm going wrong, and lemme know if you want me to explain and of the powers of the Saiyan, if yoy have any questions. Then break down your estimate for me so that I can adjust things accordingly.

Moving on . . .



quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Anubis
In my campaign, a (NPC) Saiyan in Oozaru form was able to defeat a (PC) Quasi-deity Fighter 1, a (NPC) Sacred Fist 16, and a (NPC) Sorcerer 16 with ease.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Anubis
How?

I must be missing something?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, the PC was a Fighter1, a Quasi-deity with 8 Outsider HD, he was a two-weapon fighter with a Longsword +5 and a Short Sword +5 and roughly average stats. (Average for a Quasi-deity, that is: 30/28/25/31/31/29.) I think he had approximately 100 hit points. The Sacred Fist was a multiclass Cleric6/Sacred Fist10, and the Sorcerer was a straight Sorcerer16.

The Oozaru in question, however, had over 200 hit points, and never did miss with an attack because the attack power was around +30 or more. Each hit did nearly 50 points of damage, and he gets three attacks per round, so . . .

I will note for the record, however, that the player is NOT a min-maxer, but then again, players aren't SUPPOSED to min-max, so . . .

Anyway, that's how it happened. Needless to say, it wasn't pretty. The Oozaru could smash a Tarrasque pretty hard even, it really is an Epic monster. Just a very limited Epic monster.

As for an Oozaru being Colossal, well . . . Those thigns are like King King size, pretty much as big as some smaller skyscrapers. Maybe not as tall as Godzilla (Godzilla is 390 feet tall, or something like that. My friend happens to be a Godzilla MANIAC, it drives me nuts, he thinks Godzilla is invincible, although I KNOW a Super Saiyan would smash Godzilla.), but easily as big as Tarrasque or a Great Wyrm.

 

[Anubis]

Bump.

 

[Anime Kidd]

Just quickly skimmed the saiyan stats and the thread, but I must say that you made them WAY to powerful, even for DBZ! And here I thought that my own Saiyan and Super Saiyans stats were too powerful! Anyways, I'll read the thread tonight and see how it looks.

 

[Anubis]

Just quickly skimmed the saiyan stats and the thread, but I must say that you made them WAY to powerful, even for DBZ! And here I thought that my own Saiyan and Super Saiyans stats were too powerful! Anyways, I'll read the thread tonight and see how it looks.

Indeed you should read it all the way through, although the main information is in the first post.

They are extremely powerful in D&D terms, although they pale in comparison to Dragonball statistics.

Take, for instance, the fact that Goku is three times more powerful than Master Roshi, the most powerful and skilled human martial artist in the world, at the BEGINNING of Dragonball Z. Also take into consideration that Piccolo, with the same amount of power as Goku, was able to blow up the moon. Heck, take into account the fact that Master Roshi himself blew up the moon during Dragonball with a third of that power! Heck, Brolly came close to destroying the entire UNIVERSE, and he never made it past Super Saiyan!

I WEAKENED Saiyans for D&D in order to make them playable, although they are still quite powerful. As I have said before, these things are primarily for Epic games, especially once you start using Super Saiyans.

In all honesty, I'm considering making them MORE powerful by giving them more hit dice, because as they are, they may not quite be CR 10.

So are they powerful? You better believe it. Overpowering? If you're not ready for Epic games, then yes. Too powerful even compared to Dragonball? Hehehe, laughable, not a chance, considering what they do in the series.

Anyway, just take a look. I think you'll find that their powers are severely reduced.