Sandboxing in the Nentir Vale (was: Emergent Features in KotS)

[pukunui]

They just went right in; they made some good knowledge checks about Thunderspire and the Mages of Saruun (which got fed back into the backstory of one of the PCs - Malchior the Warlord, multiclassed Wizard, who has friends and an uncle in the organization).

I am thinking about putting the Invulnerable Coat of Arnd in there, maybe on Paldamar, as an heirloom of Malchior's noble family. I'll re-fluff it, or Arnd.

Nice.

So, to answer the question: how difficult should it be to get in? I think it depends on how much time you want to spend on it.

I don't want to spend that much time on it, but I also don't want it to be "OK, you go to Thunderspire, follow the road up the mountain, find the entrance, and go in."

What I'm thinking is that the adventure takes place in your minotaur PC's father's tomb. Maybe it's been defiled by Vecna, keeper of secrets. Maybe the PC's father switched to worship of Vecna in his final days in order to discover the entrance, but the twisted lies of Vecna meant that he died once he discovered the secret. Now he's a ghost, angry and bitter.

I don't actually know if the PC's father is dead or not. He might just be an old man. I'll have to go back and check. But that is certainly a good idea.

The adventure resolves that - will the PCs be able to end Vecna's curse on him, or will he still be obsessed with finding Thunderspire? Either way he will tell the PCs where it is.

The thing is, everyone in Nentir Valley knows where Thunderspire is. It's a well-known landmark. But the existence of the ancient minotaur city of Saruun Khel inside the mountain is but a rumor (and those that know the truth don't give their knowledge away freely). I imagine that the PC's father must have at least known - or had a very good idea - that the ruins were under Thunderspire, but he never figured out how to get in. Thus I can't make it too easy for the PCs or else, as you say, it'll make the father look like a total idiot (which he may well have been ... ).

I'm thinking a cool intelligent magic item, maybe artifact-level, that holds his soul will guide the PCs into Thunderspire. +2 to Dungeoneering checks sounds like a good bonus.

It's funny you should mention this because when we were playing 3.5, the guy playing the minotaur wanted an intelligent weapon but I told him no because the rules for intelligent weapons were too complicated and high-level, etc etc. But I've got the Dragon article talking about intelligent items for 4e, and it seems pretty simple and easy, and so now I really want to give him an intelligent weapon. Having it be the soul of his father would be way cool in terms of story ... I had actually been thinking of giving him a "sword on speed" (a joke from a different thread pertaining to the typo in the article that reads "speed" instead of "speech").

If it's not that big a deal, a skill challenge would be a good way to approach it. I'd probably just copy the Moria scene; the PCs will eventually break through, but will they be able to get in before that lurker in the water attacks them? Will it break the entrance so that no one can get in or out that way?

Good point. I may just do that. The guys did say that they enjoyed the skill challenge that was incorporated into the combat in the graveyard last time, so if I make it so they have to try to open the door while fighting the thing in the lake, they might enjoy it. But I also want to make it so that they have to find the right spot on the side of the mountain as well.

I don't know if you're aware of the "Three Clue Rule" but I'm thinking I might start trying to adopt that approach to adventures. WotC doesn't seem to care if their adventures are railroady or have serious bottlenecks, but if I can give the PCs multiple ways to achieve their goals, I think it'll really enrich the adventures and make it less likely for them to get stuck. At this point, my plans for Thunderspire are still fairly vague but one thing I'm thinking of is the three ways for them to find Thunderspire would be:
1) They get the info out of the House Azaer tiefling in Fallcrest (since there's a House Azaer shop in the Seven Pillared Hall, then the tieflings must know how to get in and out).
2) They get the info from finding and researching ancient texts -- perhaps after going on a short adventure to find the info in a minotaur tomb or something first.
3) They simply go to the mountain and wait for someone to come along who can show them the entrance.

Whatever you do, don't make it easy to get in. Even if the PCs just get really lucky it's better than if they do something simple to get access. If you make it too easy, the PC's father is going to look like an idiot, and that means that the PC's own image will be tarnished.

Exactly.

 

[LostSoul]

I don't actually know if the PC's father is dead or not. He might just be an old man. I'll have to go back and check. But that is certainly a good idea.

It might work out better if he's still alive - then they can save him from death.

 

[pukunui]

Ooh. Actually ... that's a fantastic idea! That could be the adventure hook. The PCs come back to Fallcrest from their adventures in Winterhaven only to find that Taro the minotaur's father has gone off again, leaving a note saying he's having once last look for the minotaur city ... and then maybe a week or two later, Taro gets a vision of his father needing help and that sets everyone off on adventure again.

I'd like to try to have a bit of a hook for each PC, if I can, but that one will work well for the minotaur (although the player has said that that's where he wants to go next anyway).

Now the trick will be to make sure his PC survives KotS!

 

[LostSoul]

Two updates, this time.

Two weeks ago the PCs embarked on a quest from the Mages of Saruun to destroy the Temple of Torog somewhere in the Cisterns. (Luckily the PCs had a map, even if it was tatooed on the stinking flesh of a troglodyte.) Orontar asked the PCs to infiltrate into the temple, open up a Linked Portal, and then the Mages would clean up.

We started with an encounter featuring swarms of worms, beetles, and a carrion crawler guarding a well that led into the cisterns. Swarms of worms and beetles were flooding into the chamber from hollow carved columns. The PCs figured out that this crazy bug fest was being caused from a sacred circle of Torog, which they wiped out.

The PCs cleaned up, then headed down into the Cisterns.

I ran a skill challenge as the PCs followed the map deep into the cisterns. They avoided some encounters, fought off a giant water snake (like the thing that grabbed Luke in the Death Star's garbage compactor), and finally reached the gates to the troglodyte warren.

Creative use of cantrips caused most of the guards to flee, and the PCs fought their way in.

After not much time the PCs found themselves trapped in a room with hundreds of angry troglodytes coming after them. The Wizard was busy using the Linked Portal - though not in the temple, like the Mages asked.

I was using minions - way too high level minions, too, big mistake! There was a standoff between the PCs in their little chamber and the trogs on the other side, caused by the Warlock's Armour of Agathas. Finally, the Wizard opened the Linked Portal, and Orontar and his men jumped through.

"What the hell is this? Where's the temple?" Orontar says.

"On the other side of that horde of troglodytes."

"Screw this. We wanted the portal open in the temple. You guys messed up." He jumps back and the portal closes. Only a few human guards made it through. (So far it had been too easy for the PCs, so I upped the difficulty.)

The PCs escaped through the hot air heating system in the troglodyte warren (old minotaur baths) and we ran another skill challenge. I allowed them to take an extended rest, which was probably not a good idea. The PCs were hunted but they made it into the temple.

The final encounter saw the PCs clean up pretty handily, with a loss of healing surges but only the warlord went down once. When they destroyed the altar, the temple began to crumble, and they escaped through a back tunnel.

 

[LostSoul]

This Week: The Long Walk Home

(Oh yeah, some stuff I forgot to mention: the PCs saved a bunch of human slaves / sacrifical / torture victims. Some of them mentioned that Paldemar, Malchior the Warlord's uncle, was seen in the warrens, trading rituals.)

The PCs are lost in the Labyrinth, their map useless now - pointing to a path that's blocked with tons of rubble. A score of slaves travel with them, and they aren't too quiet. And the PCs are tired and worn down.

They explore for a while and come to a T-intersection, with a set of winding stairs leading up. Armok the Wizard lights some sacred incense of the Raven Queen, and a black, spectral Hand of Fate appears:

• "What's the best way back to the Seven-Pillared Hall?" The hand points up the stairs.
• "Which way is pursuit coming from?" The hand makes a fist.
• "Who will be the first to betray us?" The hand points to Don, one of Bren the Bold's (halfling Rogue) Entourage. The PCs call Don an idiot and ask him why he would betray them. "I wouldn't! Why do you guys treat me like crap?" Looks like a self-fufilling prophecy.

The PCs head up the stairs, passing by levels of mazes. Then they come to one landing with a demonic goat's head in a circle carved into the ground and a sheer-black wall. Armok recognizes the goat's head as the symbol of the demon lord Baphomet, the Horned King, and the black wall as a portal to the Shadowfell.

The PCs decide to pass by and head back up, marking this area for later. Maybe they'll come back when they don't have nearly two-dozen slaves in tow.

They find themselves in a wide corridor full of minotaur and demon statues, some toppled. Malchior identifies it as the Hall of Glory. They press on towards safety.

Suddenly, Bren the Bold is floating and screaming soundlessly! Oh look, a gelatinous cube. Malchior rushes up to smack it as Bren slips out, and Armok gets in there to blast it.

Then there's a scream of utter terror from behind the PCs. Oily black wispy things are coming out of the ground, attacking the slaves. One of them is already dead from its touch - oh crap, there goes another.

Jace orders the slaves to run and activates his Armour of Agathas, engaging the wraiths.

The cube reaches out with caustic psuedopods and pulls Bren and Armok back into its bulk.

Wex the Fighter rushes at the bulky cube, now opaque, and slams into it with his shield. The cube shudders, enough for Bren to slip out, give it a kick, and then the nimble Rogue is off and running. Armok is still inside, trying to get out, acid burning at him. Malchior the Warlord keeps pounding on the cube, cutting swaths in it.

Meanwhile, black smoke starts to pour from the mouths of the dead slaves. Two more wraiths appear. They slip around and surround Bren, their touch sapping the strength from his arms. The other three attack Jace, their blackness burned away from the cold flames that surround him, but already the wispy black is starting to reform. Jace pulls back from the onslaught and launches hellish flames at the cube, burning small pits in it.

Then the cube engulfs Malchior and Wexley, and Armok is still on the inside, burning.

The fight is on. Bren and Jace flee and are pursued by one of the wraiths, while the others deal with the rest of the PCs, even entering the cube to get to them. Bren falls many times, and Jace keeps him on his feet with healing potions.

Armok nearly dies in the cube, while Wexley is weakened by the wraith's touch.

Finally the cube is pushed away and spends its time holding the wraiths within it. Jace uses his Beguiling Tongue to order the (barely bloodied) wraith to "leave this place." It does. With some room to spare, he and Bren finally kill the cube, revealing three skeletons, one holding a stone tablet.

Jace grabs it and threatens to break it. "No! Give it back! It leads to immortality!"

Standoff. The PCs negotiate with the wraiths (as much as they can with the dead, insane shades), and are able to flee once they put the stone tablet back into the hands of the skeleton. The wraiths, five strong now, swirl around the tablet.

The PCs lick their wounds, very tired now. They head to the Shining Road, where they meet a bunch of humans collecting tolls for a wannabe dwarf king. Malchior insults the "king", and he's killed in short order; the human mercenaries stop fighting almost immediately.

While they're talking to the humans, they hear some howling down the road. The humans put out the lights and bar the doors. "Damn hyenas," they say. Apparently they only stop and try to collect tolls from some of the travellers.

The PCs figure this is not a safe spot to rest, so they press on. They run into the pack of hyenas, who kill more of the slaves, and finally make it back to the Seven-Pillared Hall.

While they're resting, the Duergar speak to Jace about a job. "You know those slaves you brought back? Bring them to the hobgoblins in the Chamber of Eyes. Once you do that, we'll take you to the Horned Hold."

Orontar gives the PCs a hard time about the Linked Portal scroll and the "botched" job in the Cisterns. (I'm setting them up as villains.) When Paldemar's name is brought up, who walks in but... yep, Paldemar. He says he's been in the Tower of Thunder, trading with the witch who lives there.

Malchior, his nephew, is suspicious, and insults Paldemar. Paldemar storms out. Orontar is pissed off about this, but when the PCs tell him that they destroyed the Temple of Torog, he relents. He even agrees to waive the fee for the scroll of Linked Portal!

And that was that.

 

[firesnakearies]

Wow.

This game is totally awesome!

Great thread, man. You sound like a fantastic DM.

You should record an actual play podcast of this....

 

[LostSoul]

Played last night.

We finally got back on track. The PCs decided to get on with the hunt for the slaves, and had a big conference about it in their room at the friendly underdark inn. The duergar wanted them to take the slaves to the Chamber of Eyes, to sell to the hobgoblins there; the PCs did not want to deal with trucking slaves through the Labyrinth again, so the decision was made to take out the duergar.

And that's when Armok the Wizard noticed Don, one of Bren the Bold's Entourage, acting funny. There was just something off about him. Wexley the Fighter roughed him up a bit, but Don wouldn't talk. He left the room.

Oh, oh I just realized, he would have needed a 30 passive Insight score. Whoops.

Bren the Bold snuck out after him. Don drank a beer, went to the bathroom, and slipped out the back. He was headed right for the duergar's trading post.

Bren snuck up behind him to knock him out. He swung at the man, but Don turned at the last second and, moving with inhuman speed, dodged out of the way! Now Bren was certain there was something up; Don just wasn't that quick.

Whatever happened to him, he still wasn't quick enough to mess with Bren. Bren knocked him out with another swing.

The duergar heard the commotion so Bren jammed the door and dragged Don's unconcious body into a side chamber; the residence of a dwarf, passed out on a cot. Bren slit Don's throat and Don's features melted away, revealing a doppleganger.

That was the last straw. The PCs went to the duergar's trading post.

"What do you want?" the duergar asked.

"We have some business to discuss," Jace the Warlock said, and blasted him with a bolt of fire.

The duergar, in close quarters proved to be tricky opponents! Their resistance to fire helped greatly, and their snakey, infernal beards sapped the strength of the PCs.

Luckily Bren jammed the doors so that reinforcements would take a while to show up.

When the duergar leader came in, she breathed out a vile cloud of gas that blinded everyone. This might not have been a good move, as she became the target of everything the PCs had. She had the chance to throw a bunch of burning coals from her hellforge, exploding in the room, but soon she was dead.

The last duergar tried to flee, but was frozen by Armok's wizardry.

The PCs found a map to the Chamber of Eyes in the trading post. After making some purchases in town, they struck out into the dungeon again.

When they saw the symbols of Torog on the Chamber of Eyes they didn't like it too much, but when they heard goblins on the other side of the main door they relaxed a bit. They wouldn't have to deal with the smell of troglodytes.

Bren slipped up a balcony and they bypassed the main door, where they engaged the goblin guards and their bugbear leader. Bren slipped into the room silently, given a burst of speed thanks to Malchior the Warlord's coaching, and tried to kill the bugbear - but missed.

The bugbear got up and smashed Bren hard, knocking him down, and one of the goblins came up behind him and hit him with a battleaxe. Bren was not looking too good. One of the goblins dumped a brazier of hot coals on him, but luckily Bren was able to dodge out of the way.

The rest of the PCs came in. Armok grabbed a sheet from one of the beds with his mage hand, lit it on fire in the hot coals, and wrapped it around the bugbear, burning him badly.

3d6+int mod fire damage, ongoing 5 fire (save ends).

When the stench of badly burning bugbear assaulted their senses, the PCs realized fire resistance was not in play and that was pretty much it for the goblins.

Leaving the room, they could hear some scratching at a large set of double doors. The smoke and smell of charred bugbear must have alerted something on the other side.

But there was another door, so the PCs went through it, finding two duergar. These guys were smashed down pretty quickly, though they were able to alert the rest of the complex.

A hobgoblin warcaster pulled Malchior the Warlord into the freezing cold that Armok had set up. Bren ran past them both and went to engage the hobgoblin chief Krand, who was just about to open a door. Bren feinted, Krand stabbed at him, overreaching, and Bren slipped by him, cutting him as he passed. Now Bren was at the door and Krand behind him.

Krand shouted: "Open the door!" and a hogoblin archer showed up, swinging at Bren. Malchior came to see if he could help, but when he tried to run around Krand to set up some flanking, Krand stabbed him and blocked his path.

Bren was shot with a few arrows from more archers and wasn't looking too good.

Meanwhile, the duergar and warcaster were cleaned up by Jace and Wexley. Armok was having a field day with his Crushing Hand, squeezing the hell out of the dire wolf that had just burst down the main door.

Malchior put the hurt on Krand with his Daily, dropping him.

After that, it was cleanup; the hobgoblins dropped pretty easily.

At which point, the DM looked in the module and said, "Hey, who are these guys?", realizing that he had forgotten an encounter area stuffed with hobgoblins, human bandits, and goblins. Crap, he would have had them come in to join the fight had he realized.

But he did have one of the goblins poke his head through the door, say, "Oh crap, what the hell is this!" and duck back again.

That's where we left off. The next encounter will begin right away, without a short rest in between.

Cool moments: that would be when Armok used the Mage Hand to burn the bugbear. Using a Limited Damage Expression made that awesome. I like that kind of thing.

The fight with the duergar was pretty cool, too.

Next time: I plan to have some of the bandits throw kegs of beer at the PCs, like molotov cocktails.

Burning Goblin Ale (standard; at-will if standing next to the fireplace and barrels)
Area Burst 2 within 5; +7 vs. Reflex; 2d10+3 fire damage plus ongoing 5 fire (save ends).

 

[firesnakearies]

This is really cool.

 

[LostSoul]

Played tonight.

Featured the final encounter in the Chamber of Eyes, which the PCs cleaned up on (even with the hobgoblin ale flasks), and then a hunt through the labyrinth for the one goblin who escaped.

Which led into a "random encounter" of my own design - a lair connected to the Feywild, a lair of elves and goblins in service to a green dragon - and it was really cool.

Things that helped were interesting terrain features (an old, rickety balcony and a 20' pit with a chained cave bear, murder holes with boiling oil, multiple entrances to the same area) and a list of random events (most of which were not that great, but the "Random Encounter arrives in the same entrance" really spiced things up). The fight was cool, very tense, and the PCs went from cocky to "Oh my god we are all going to die."

Luckily the PCs used the terrain features to their own advantage.

As we play, I am learning more and more about what makes a good encounter. Player choice and creativity as well as a healthy dose of unforseen events changing the situation are the key, I think.

 

[vagabundo]

As we play, I am learning more and more about what makes a good encounter. Player choice and creativity as well as a healthy dose of unforseen events changing the situation are the key, I think.

Lol, this is true. I was surprised at how much fun my players had with a Hobgoblin soldier that the fighter - after the third try - managed to shield bash down the well. My fighter loves his Bashing Shield.

Interesting terrain is the seasoning for the 4e monster powers buffet.