Save or Die!

[Sagan Darkside]

You're forgetting that this isn't always the PC's story. Sometimes, you're reading through the story of "How The BBEG Got His Reputation".

Well, in the example I used above- the player wrote a long background. He wrote IC summaries of every adventure leading up to that encounter. He had done well in enriching the world by making friends and enemies.

When his character died from a single bad roll, I don't recall him high-fiving the other players and letting out a woop for joy.

But, boy, if I had turned around and told him what you just said- I probably would have been high-fived in the head. heh.

SD

 

[Knightfall]

...that's what bugs me most about this situation, it's that there is essentially no chance but the one roll. That, to me, isn't gaming, it's dice rolling and system mechanics. Where's the story in, "He rolled a 1 and died..."?

Here's an idea. You could take the same rule as with Critical Hits and apply it to saves where the result is death. If you roll a one for your save then there is a chance your character will die. You roll your save again and if you fail by 5 or more then your PC is dust. Otherwise you apply an appropriate amount of damage depending on what the save involved.

Yes, it's more complicated but it's like this - if you don't like the way something works about the rules then chage it.

Just an idea...

KF72

 

[schporto]

I actually just had something like this. Group ran into blue dragon. Party rolled badly and dragon got first attack. OF course used breath. Rolled the dice and killed sorcerer. Exactly -10. Didn't like that. So knocked 1 off damage so the sorcerer was -9 and unstable. Cleric healed. Party killed dragon. Why'd I save the sorc? Well they never got to do anything. I mean really you open the door, the dragon zaps you, yeah as a DM I screwed you. I didn't even give you a chance. Now if someone died the next time the dragon breathed, yeah they'd be dead. They would've had a chance to run or something. But save the character by knocking one hp off damage. Didn't seem like a bad fudge to me.
-cpd

 

[Murrdox]

Death is avoidable, and even if it occurrs, does not mean the end of a character, due to ressurection. Save or Die situations keeps the game alive, interesting, and the players on their toes.

If the players know that the evil wizard they're about to face has a habit of using Disintigrate on his foes, then a lot of the fear and anticipation of the battle is IMMEDIATELY removed if we had any sort of house rule where if you don't save you're at -1.

If players think they're immortal, in my opinion, the game becomes less fun. The rewards are much sweeter when they're earned through hardships rather than just handed to you on a plate by the DM.

The DM should take special note, however, whenever "Save or Die" situations arise, so that if the worst happens, you don't have a player who is really cheesed off his character died, with no chance to get him back.

 

[Victim]

Save or Die doesn't usually make for a very fun game, in my experience. Players should be allowed to use their characters' skills/abilities to survive, or their own cleverness. Pure random luck determining such a big/important thing is no more fun that playing a slot machine.

Last time I checked, save or die effects usually allow plenty of room for players to use their abilities. Death Ward blocks death effects. Spell Immunity beats Polymorph or Phantasmal Killer. Freedom of Movement beats Hold Person. Protection from Evil beats mind control. Mindblank stops all kinds of stuff. Spell Turning makes the other guy eat his own Save or Die effects. There have been a couple of occassions in which my character has failed a save, but then been immune.

Also, by the time direct save or die effects come into play, the party can usually have access to resurrection magic. At very high levels, character death consumes a rather small amount of resources - 5000 GP and a 9th level spell. Easy come, easy go - well, it's more like the other way around. Resurrection and extremely risk situations are part of a package deal, IMHO. From an RP perspective, coming back from the dead might provide an interesting chance for character development.

Quite frankly, I dislike the "No-save and die" effects much more than simple save or die stuff. For many characters, a full attack from a monster pretty much equates to instant death - especially if the attack involves rending, or swallow whole. Harm along with anything else results in death as well. Similarly, Energy Drain or Enervation will kill you if you get enough negative levels.

 

[Isida Kep'Tukari]

[hijack]I just have one Eddie Izzard quote for this situation:

"Cake or Death!"

[/hijack]

 

[Forrester]

Save or Die doesn't usually make for a very fun game, in my experience. Players should be allowed to use their characters' skills/abilities to survive, or their own cleverness. Pure random luck determining such a big/important thing is no more fun that playing a slot machine.

I agree. To combat this in my campaign, I've done two things:

1) No Greater Spell Focus, etc., to raise save DCs to ridiculous levels.

2) Rocks O' Fate!

Basically, each player got two nifty little colored stones at the beginning of each *session*. One is a personal ROF, one goes in a party pool.

During the session, any player may spend a ROF to reroll any roll, or make an enemy reroll any attack roll. (No fair trying to make them reroll saves!) The reroll is at +2/-2 (the player's choice). A player must use his personal stone first, then take one from the pool; max of two stones per roll. Yes, it's like you're own personal Luck Domain, but better.

And that's pretty much that. When a PC absolutely needs to do something cool or dramatic . . . he can. Probably . Additionally, he's probably not going to die to the first Save or Die spell thrown at him.

On the other hand, neither will the Big Bad. Random mooks don't get ROFs, but the Big Bad's 2nd in command will probably have one, and the Big Bad himself will have at least two or three. So the climactic battle against the party is simply not going to end in one round . . . not because of save-or-die or a lucky crit with a heavy pick, at least.

(The other nice thing is that I can be less concerned about killing off the entire party by accident. Encounters tended to be rather nasty on average, and the ROFs are a nice buffer.)

Try it, you'll like it . . .

 

[diaglo]

Actualy, hard as it may be to comprehend I guess, some people *don't* think there is anything fun in having a lot of hard work and development obliterated by a random act.

and the same could be said for the DM then i suppose.

if you are willing to kill the bad guys with a random roll. then the PCs should face the same danger.

i've played in games where the DM was afraid to kill a PC. they aren't any fun either.

 

[DDK]

Also, by the time direct save or die effects come into play, the party can usually have access to resurrection magic.

The first save or die spell, IMO, is Hold Person which for clerics is gained at 3rd level. Hrm... the first time any sort of spell can bring back the dead is Reincarnation for a 7th-level druid.

And it doesn't alter the fact that the character died through the result of one die roll.

Quite frankly, I dislike the "No-save and die" effects much more than simple save or die stuff. For many characters, a full attack from a monster pretty much equates to instant death - especially if the attack involves rending, or swallow whole. Harm along with anything else results in death as well. Similarly, Energy Drain or Enervation will kill you if you get enough negative levels.

Rend is nasty... I had a PC explode because of rend... -26 hit points IIRC... and yeah, it is similar to a save or die situation but then I have issues with the hit points and damage systems as well

 

[Murrdox]

A 5th level party (which can cast Hold Person, which in combination with CdG is an insta-death) may risk death, but they also have the resources to ressurect their comrades. Only REALLY powerful characters should be able to ressurect each other on the spot... and that's how I like it.

Having a pool of "Edge" dice is an interesting idea, especially if the bad guys get it as well. Personally, I see no need. If my characters die, they die. Even if it's bad luck. Sometimes I'll fudge a damage roll, but otherwise you get what you get.

I had a low level party ambushed by a couple of Ankheds under the ground. One of them burrowed up underneath a character, grabed him, full attacked him, and killed him in the first round. I didn't think that was quite fair, so I fudged the damage so he was unconscious but not quite dead.

Random death for absolutely no reason, when the party couldn't do anything about it doesn't make much sense. That party was too low level to detect the Ankheds before hand.

The previous example about the Sorcerer getting killed in the first round in combat against a Dragon? If a dragon somehow "sneaks up" on a party, or the party doesn't take precautions if they know they're going up against such creatures, that's just fine, IMO. It doesn't matter that the sorcerer died in the first round... he died because he and the party didn't take the right precautions before the fight. Heck, a listen check at the door gives you a pretty good chance to hear a dragon breathing in the next room of the dungeon! I'd have the sorcerer stay dead. Unless the dragon dimenion-doored right in front of the sorcerer and breathed on him out of the blue with no warning... I'd kill him.