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saving feats when you level???
- Thread starter KenM
- Start date
Spatzimaus
First Post
In most cases you're only talking about a difference of one level. Not the sort of thing I'd freak out over.
BUT... there are other ways to abuse this.
1> I made a bad guy one time. He was a min-maxxing nightmare, but was loads of fun to use against the party. Anyway, the problem was, he was built on a point-buy system, and I just didn't have enough points to do all the things I wanted. He needed Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack, but only started with a DEX of 12; he needed Power Attack, Cleave, and Sunder but only started with a STR of 12. Naturally, I'd put my level 4 and 8 stat increases into these.
If he could save Feats, he could hold them until he had raised his STR and DEX to 13, and then buy them three at a time. This'd allow him to get the full set of six Feats about 5 levels sooner, which isn't quite so minor.
(The solution, of course, was to add another template that raised both stats)
2> The obvious one: saving a General feat slot until you reach level 21, so that you can buy more Epic feats. This one's easy to Rule 0, of course.
3> There are other ways to "unlock" Feats. For example, some PrCs (don't ask me which, I just know I've seen them) allow you to use general Feats to buy class abilities. Or maybe you've taken Dragon Disciple, which gives you wings and armor, which allows you to take feats like Hover, Fly-By Attack, or Improved Natural Armor.
One limiting factor is that you can't start taking these Feats until high level, so you can't buy many of them. If you could save up your earlier Feats, it could make a large difference.
BUT... there are other ways to abuse this.
1> I made a bad guy one time. He was a min-maxxing nightmare, but was loads of fun to use against the party. Anyway, the problem was, he was built on a point-buy system, and I just didn't have enough points to do all the things I wanted. He needed Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack, but only started with a DEX of 12; he needed Power Attack, Cleave, and Sunder but only started with a STR of 12. Naturally, I'd put my level 4 and 8 stat increases into these.
If he could save Feats, he could hold them until he had raised his STR and DEX to 13, and then buy them three at a time. This'd allow him to get the full set of six Feats about 5 levels sooner, which isn't quite so minor.
(The solution, of course, was to add another template that raised both stats)
2> The obvious one: saving a General feat slot until you reach level 21, so that you can buy more Epic feats. This one's easy to Rule 0, of course.
3> There are other ways to "unlock" Feats. For example, some PrCs (don't ask me which, I just know I've seen them) allow you to use general Feats to buy class abilities. Or maybe you've taken Dragon Disciple, which gives you wings and armor, which allows you to take feats like Hover, Fly-By Attack, or Improved Natural Armor.
One limiting factor is that you can't start taking these Feats until high level, so you can't buy many of them. If you could save up your earlier Feats, it could make a large difference.
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anon said:
Actually, that is what the thread is about, not the hijacking of the thread to picking feats before you qualify for them.
KenM said:
anon said:
I hate doing other peoples homework for them.
The PrC abuse is not just that someone could gain a level of PrC a level early.
For example:
6th level Ranger takes Stunning Fist, even though his wisdom is a point shy. At 8th level, he takes the Red Avenger PrC, even though he normally would have to wait for 9th level.
There is also the ability to get the feats you want without having to take feats you do not want.
For example:
Non-good, non-evil Wizard gets to 5th level and becomes a Guild Wizard of Waterdeep at 6th level. He has Scribe Scroll and a metamagic feat at this point (deciding to put his other feats in non-metamagic / non-item creation feats).
As a 3rd level Guild Wizard, he decides to take Craft Rods. He is only 8th level, but he uses up the Item Creation feat from Guild Wizard because he only wants two item creation feats total (Scribe Scroll and Craft Rods).
At 9th level, he decides to switch over to Red Wizard or some other PrC that has 3 item creation and/or metamagic feat requirements.
This character can take this new PrC at level 9 WITHOUT having to take an unwanted item creation feat at level 8 and Craft Rod at level 9. Instead, he can take some other feat at level 9. The character gets the extra feat for staying in the Guild Wizard PrC and at the same time, effectively gets to take a non-item creation feat in place of that feat because his 9th level feat pick is a non-item creation one. In reality, he should have had to take a different item creation feat at 8th level and if he still wanted Craft Rod at 9th level, he would have not gotten that other feat at 9th level.
anon said:
There are plenty of feats that are taken at given levels and cannot yet be used. Hence, this "counter balancing" aspect of this house rule is not that big of a deal.
For example, if a character takes an item creation feat, there are often situations where he cannot actually use it because he is not in town or does not have enough money or whatever.
Even a feat like Great Cleave may go for several levels without being used.
This concept that "giving up a level or two for a feat in order to gain exactly what you want" is still power gaming, more so than the normal game. IMO.
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Altalazar
First Post
Saving feats is NOT inherently power gaming.
It is more about character customization.
In terms of balance, something else to keep in mind is, what does it really matter if a certain feat is gotten at an "earlier level" than you might have otherwise with a different class/PrC combination? By the time you do reach the "qualifying" level, it will be as if you never had it early.
Can you tell the difference between a 11th level character who got one of his feats at 5th level and one who got the same feat at 8th level? No, you can't. So even if this is the most horribly unbalancing, powerful thing in the entire univsere you can do to a character, it COMPLETELY VANISHES once the character reaches the level where they could have gotten whatever feat it was without saving it. It would be as if it NEVER HAPPENED AT ALL.
So in a long running campaign, the game balance issue is zero - it has no effect on game balance in the long run.
But I question whether it is really all that big deal for some character to have a particular feat only at a given level - I prefer customization and character over slavery to game mechanics. So what if you are doing "great cleave" a level or two early - you are still doing it with the lower level BAB, the lower level STR and damage, you have fewer hit points to surivive being there on the front lines, etc.
And this also forgets the fact that to "save" a feat means that for several levels you will have NO feat in that slot.
If someone has a character concept that is best served by saving a feat for something the next level, I do not see a problem with it. I'd rather service character first. Forcing them to take some other feat that has nothing to do with their character concept (if none is available at that particular point in time) seems rather heavy-handed. I'd certainly be willing to discuss it with them.
It boils down to this: If someone is a power gamer, they'll be a power gamer regardless of what you do. If you don't like power gaming, the solution is not to play with power gamers, not to stifle everyone who plays "just in case" someone might take some minor thing and get a 2.5% power benefit out of it for a level or two.
It is more about character customization.
In terms of balance, something else to keep in mind is, what does it really matter if a certain feat is gotten at an "earlier level" than you might have otherwise with a different class/PrC combination? By the time you do reach the "qualifying" level, it will be as if you never had it early.
Can you tell the difference between a 11th level character who got one of his feats at 5th level and one who got the same feat at 8th level? No, you can't. So even if this is the most horribly unbalancing, powerful thing in the entire univsere you can do to a character, it COMPLETELY VANISHES once the character reaches the level where they could have gotten whatever feat it was without saving it. It would be as if it NEVER HAPPENED AT ALL.
So in a long running campaign, the game balance issue is zero - it has no effect on game balance in the long run.
But I question whether it is really all that big deal for some character to have a particular feat only at a given level - I prefer customization and character over slavery to game mechanics. So what if you are doing "great cleave" a level or two early - you are still doing it with the lower level BAB, the lower level STR and damage, you have fewer hit points to surivive being there on the front lines, etc.
And this also forgets the fact that to "save" a feat means that for several levels you will have NO feat in that slot.
If someone has a character concept that is best served by saving a feat for something the next level, I do not see a problem with it. I'd rather service character first. Forcing them to take some other feat that has nothing to do with their character concept (if none is available at that particular point in time) seems rather heavy-handed. I'd certainly be willing to discuss it with them.
It boils down to this: If someone is a power gamer, they'll be a power gamer regardless of what you do. If you don't like power gaming, the solution is not to play with power gamers, not to stifle everyone who plays "just in case" someone might take some minor thing and get a 2.5% power benefit out of it for a level or two.
Altalazar said:
Sure it is. That is the only purpose that it serves. Player A cannot do and wants to do something that is not allowed in the rules. Boo hoo. Cry me a river. The rest of the players have to play by the rules. The DM shouldn't play babysitter to one player.
Altalazar said:
Sometimes you can. Look at my Wizard 5 / Guild Wizard 3 / Red Wizard X example above. Such a character should have 3 metamagic feats if he takes Craft Rod, but he doesn't with this rule change.
Altalazar said:
It boils down to:
This is a rules forum.
Power gaming house rule ideas like this are fine in the house rules forum, but do not really belong here.
Senior Bobo
First Post
Actually it boils down to:
This is the discussion of the impact of an rule in the game and the possible pros and cons behind it.
Therefore it does belong here. Apparently it belongs right alongside of people with bad attitudes.
This is the discussion of the impact of an rule in the game and the possible pros and cons behind it.
Therefore it does belong here. Apparently it belongs right alongside of people with bad attitudes.
MerakSpielman
First Post
Some people are claiming that "saving" feats is somehow supported by the rules. I'd like to see a little evidence, please.
And remember that just because the rules might not say that you can't save feats, doesn't mean you can. That's bad logic.
And remember that just because the rules might not say that you can't save feats, doesn't mean you can. That's bad logic.
Altalazar
First Post
Apparently to Karinsdad, everything is about powergaming. That's fine. Karinsdad is a powergamer, then, and everyone is entitled to play the game the way they want. I prefer character, myself.
As for the question of forum, I think this started because it appears to be a grey area - the rules don't specifically say, and someone therefore had a question about it.
As for the question of forum, I think this started because it appears to be a grey area - the rules don't specifically say, and someone therefore had a question about it.
