Saving Throw issue with DM

[GorTeX]

IIRC (I don't have UA), fractional saves accumlate your save bonuses by type..so every level you take in a class with a Good Fort Save adds 1/2 to your fort save, except for 1st Character level when you get the flat +2 to a good save.

The OP has 13 (dwarf barbarian2/fighter4/battlerager5/bear warrior2) levels in a 'good' fort save. so that would be 2 + 1/2*12 or 8 by my (probably flawed) thinking. Plus whatever Feral adds (I don't have any idea).

Also, a common suggestion for stopping the save bloat created by Multi-classing is to only give the +2 at 1st character level. All other levels, you get a max of +1. I think this is even one of the suggested rules in UA.

 

[werk]

Fair enough, look under "Rule Zero"

That being said, I agree entirely with your GM. One should not gain massive saves from multiclassing. it makes no logical sense.

I disagree completely. Dipping into a class to get a bonus to save is going to handicap the character in other ways, it's all figured out...even if it doesn't make sense to Pallandrome. The only time that this would cause a problem is if you start making a bunch of house rules that break down the integrity of the system, like removing the xp penalty and the like.

Skill points are the thing that you don't get the first time bonus for over and over, but that is clearly called out. That would be illogical.

 

[starwed]

It's especially hard to convince a DM they're wrong, when they are in fact correct.

Something many are ignoring from the OP:

I am using fractional BAB and saving throws per UA to simplify math.

An equivalent system is described here. It stipulates that the +2 bonus to your "good" saving throws only applies at 1st level. This is obviously the system the DM is using (I don't know if it's actually identical to the one in UA), and under that you'd have a fort save of +9, just as he describes.

 

[pallandrome]

I'm curious, how does a fighter dipping into, say, barbarian, get handicapped in other ways?

Anyways, I was merely pointing out my opinion Werk, not looking for a fight. This is why Pallandrome clearly states it as a house rule in Pallandrome's game. It's not an insult, it's just an opinion.

And since the GM said he was using fractional saves, the OP really doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.

 

[Deset Gled]

Something many are ignoring from the OP:

An equivalent system is described here. It stipulates that the +2 bonus to your "good" saving throws only applies at 1st level.

Bingo.

Nail, you are correct per the rules in the PHB, but the DM isn't using those rules.

I'm kind of astonished it took until post 13 for this to be noticed.

 

[WhatGravitas]

An equivalent system is described here. It stipulates that the +2 bonus to your "good" saving throws only applies at 1st level. This is obviously the system the DM is using (I don't know if it's actually identical to the one in UA), and under that you'd have a fort save of +9, just as he describes.

The UA-system says nothing about cutting the +2... it even states that a Cleric 5/Fighter 2 has a Fortitude save of 7-1/2 (4-1/2 + 3) - sidebar on page 73.

And the Save-My-Game article has no bearing, because - frankly - the author just gives advice and isn't well-versed in the balance of the game, since he often missed rules... like that fireballs blow up hindrances and continue, and similar stuff (i.e. he thought, if a fireball hits a pane of glass, it stops there and destroys the glass, but doesn't continue, since it's instantanous, and the instant is over, when the glass is destroyed).

 

[Laman Stahros]

The fractional BAB and Save system in UA seems to imply that you only get the +2 bonus at first level of character. It could be read to mean the other way, also. The OP's DM may not realise that it could be read a different way.

He should have stated from the beginning that he was using the Fractional BAB and Save system and explained what that meant, but other than that, I don't see any problems.

 

[GorTeX]

The UA-system says nothing about cutting the +2... it even states that a Cleric 5/Fighter 2 has a Fortitude save of 7-1/2 (4-1/2 + 3) - sidebar on page 73.

What is the UA rule then?

Could it be 1+(CL/2) for good saves and (CL/3) for bad saves. If so, then if the Cleric5/Fighter 2 with a con of 16 would have a 7.5

(I"m wildly guessing here)

 

[werk]

Something many are ignoring from the OP:

Yeah, I totally missed that. Thanks Starwed!

 

[werk]

I'm curious, how does a fighter dipping into, say, barbarian, get handicapped in other ways?

Anyways, I was merely pointing out my opinion Werk, not looking for a fight.

Of course, I'm not a fighter either But this is the rules forum, and answering rule zero to legitimate rules questions may not be the best or most helpful response, especially when followed up with accusations of cherry picking and munchkin...ing. But I'm the bad guy, so I'll digress.


A first level fighter's saves are +2 fort and +0 to the other two. If you take the next level as a barbarian, you get the same. So at the cost of 2 points (1 to reflex and 1 to will) you've added them to fort. +4 fort, +0 Ref, +0 Will. This will often work to the character's disadvantage because it heightens the characters weakness and strength, rather than minimizing weaknesses...as a munchkin should.

That is the handicap. They are just moving around the numbers they get, not actually profiting or gaining an advantage. IMO, of course.

I really just wanted to bring it up because a lot of DMs have removed favored class and xp penalties for mulit class level discrepancies. This is where I think the trouble really starts to blossom and could get out of hand as you've implied.