Saving Throw issue with DM

[Hawken]

I'm really not trying to be a dick about this either. I'm not interested in the Whirling Frenzy thing either, although Evasion while Raging is a nice touch.

He seems pretty flexible with what he's allowing, it's just this lack of house rules up front and then telling me this stuff right after slaughtering our first bad guy in one round that got to me. If he insists on docking my Fort save 5 points, I can live with it (until it kills me). But I think he's bitten off a little more than he can chew with this particular game, just based on the way things have been with this first combat.

Incidentally, I did kinda dip my finger into the multiclass jar, but I would have done without the Bear Warrior completely if Battlerager progressed more than 5 levels and I found the Feral template by accident after looking through Savage Species on a lark (until now I had avoided that book like the plague). I do like the Feral template for primitive type characters, although it does give them a "Wolverine" kinda feel with the claws, rending, fast healing, etc.

Thanks again to all of you for chiming in on this issue.

 

[crazy_monkey1956]

Chiming in on the conversation, here.

What may be going on, at least with the hit point issue, is that the DM is going straight to the template description which simply says to change HD to D10. Flip to the page, end of story...with most books except Savage Species. The explanation, as pointed out previously, is on page 112 of said book, not in the template. A casual or inexperienced DM or player will not realize that and make the ruling accordingly...all HD, including class HD change to d10s.

My assumption of the issue at hand is that the DM is used to the explicit descriptions in the 3.5 Monster Manual. Savage Species is 3.25 (ish) and unclear in many respects. Thus the confusion.

As for the save issue, this may be another symptom of DM inexperience. Incorporating optional rules and house rules when one doesn't know the "official" rules very well can lead to an extensive array of problems.

Quentin and Marie

 

[billd91]

Fair enough, look under "Rule Zero"

That being said, I agree entirely with your GM. One should not gain massive saves from multiclassing. it makes no logical sense.

I generally agree as well. There are seriously times I wish that the save bonus was based on your character level and the classes that you take just determine whether or not you take your saves from the good or bad track. Any class that makes one of the saves good and that save's bonus is always drawn from the good track.

 

[Hawken]

In all, I ended up dropping the game. He had started in on me about natural armor bonuses before, then changed his ruling. Said I was wrong about my hit points because of the template and he had then started changing things on my character without even talking to me. On top of that, he said he was going to customize every single monster we encountered from there on because too many people in the group were immune or too resistant to too many things the monsters could do.

I don't think he was very experienced at being a DM, and especially not for a 15th level game. I just had my fill of his spontaneously introducing house rules, changing my character, and if he has to change every single monster in the game to compensate for us, that doesn't sound like its going to be fun at all, especially after nerfing (my term for him capping everyone's save bonuses) our saves.

 

[brehobit]

You sure the other saves are "pretty good"? I doubt it.

Ranger gives good reflex and fort, duskblade good will and fort (AIR), dragonmark heir good in all 3. So: from classes +4 Will, +4 reflex, +10 Fort. As a monk is +4/+4/+4 at this level, I'd say his saves were pretty good.

Besides, let's keep our eyes of the prize: limiting base save scores is not the problem. Excessive 1-level-dip multiclassing is the problem.

But these saving throw rules encourage it, and the 1-level dip like this is perfectly legal. And in the case of my character, only the duskblade was perhaps uncalled for. (Went with it has he was from the Talenta plains and had developed a fascination with magic when in Sharn.)

Bottom Line: The Op's DM interpreted the rules incorrectly. Period.

Sure, and I agreed with that. I'm just saying his rule is, IME, a better one than the actual rule AND that reading that section in UA I thought it said the same thing.

Mark

 

[blargney the second]

Those all sound like sufficient reason to up and leave, Hawken. I'd have bailed at that point too!

 

[Stalker0]

Your DM is wrong and is using some far-fetched excuse to try to cover it up.

Or a friendlier and just as likely answer...he really doesn't know he's wrong. No ones perfect, and sometimes we get ideas in our heads. I was convinced for the longest time that a creature 3 sizes smaller than another creature could move around and not provoke AOOs. I was wrong, but played with that rule for a long time. It happens.

 

[bestone]

Your DM is wrong, plain and simple. Sounds like he has control issues.

You forget one thing

THE DM IS NEVER WRONG! MUAHAHAHAHAHAH OH THE POWER!

if thats what he says... and he rules it that way...then to this player...thats what it is

but everyone is right, its not raw

 

[bestone]

Besides, let's keep our eyes of the prize: limiting base save scores is not the problem. Excessive 1-level-dip multiclassing is the problem.

Agreed, What i find really breaks it, is a LOT of dm's dont impose the %10 experience penalty!! then they complain about all the level dips, it is extremely necessary to impost this!

As a house rule *and this may be excessive in your eyes* each additional class that you would normally take a penalty for stacks! so after you achieve your first %10 penalty, if you dip into another class i enforce 10 more, for a total of %20 percent, wanna dip another time? be my guest...

If you think about it, 10 percent, over 20 levels, is 2 levels........ make sure you apply penalties people!

 

[phindar]

Since multiclassing can lead to a borked Save Progression (the barbarian/fighter with a higher base fort than a barbarian or a fighter of equal character level), and BAB doesn't, what about a Save Progression that used the same rate of increase as BABs? (Fighters would get +1 per level for Fort, +3 per 4 for Ref, and +1 per 2 for Will, or something similiar.)