Scales of War #1 Rescue at Rivenroar (Full)

[Goken100]

[MENTION=42968]Goken100[/MENTION], Ah-shahran is in G11 (and Gorm in G12). I'm deliberately covering the entrance to the tunnel, since Velani and Kali are already out, and I have plenty of surges. I recommend H12, since Viator moved up to H11.

Right you are, sorry about that. I've corrected it.

EDIT: Upon reflection, I'm not sure Ah-shahran can reach that spot. It looks to me like I:12 may be difficult terrain. I'll update Freggo's movement to indicate either scenario.

 

[tiornys]

Right you are, sorry about that. I've corrected it.

EDIT: Upon reflection, I'm not sure Ah-shahran can reach that spot. It looks to me like I:12 may be difficult terrain. I'll update Freggo's movement to indicate either scenario.

If I:11 or I:12 is open, Ah-shahran can get there (to G11). We haven't actually seen either square on a map, I don't think.

t~

 

[Goken100]

If I:11 or I:12 is open, Ah-shahran can get there (to G11). We haven't actually seen either square on a map, I don't think.

t~

If you look at the latest map, you can see the triangle for difficult terrain on H:11 and I:11. And my efforts with Velani revealed that H:12 is difficult terrain. That and the pattern of the webs leads me to believe that I:12 is most likely difficult terrain as well, but we'll have to see what the DM says.

Hmm, I wonder if there's some solution for denoting difficult terrain with squares that are currently occupied. It's a bit troublesome.

 

[Goken100]

Surprise round and readied actions?

I think everything that is happening is fine, I just want to make sure I understand.

It seems that two of the spidermen had readied actions to attack anyone that came in, and knew we were coming. Did they know exactly where we were, or just hear enough to guess that a threat was imminent?

If they know exactly where we were, why was there a surprise round? Shouldn't it have just been a regular round? Or was it because WE didn't know where the second (and third) fellows were?

If they did NOT know exactly where we were or when we were attacking, should their attacks have gone off in the surprise round? Or should those readied actions have happened in the first regular round?

EDIT: DM please also let us know if I:12 is difficult terrain.

 

[Goonalan]

I think everything that is happening is fine, I just want to make sure I understand.

It seems that two of the spidermen had readied actions to attack anyone that came in, and knew we were coming. Did they know exactly where we were, or just hear enough to guess that a threat was imminent?

If they know exactly where we were, why was there a surprise round? Shouldn't it have just been a regular round? Or was it because WE didn't know where the second (and third) fellows were?

If they did NOT know exactly where we were or when we were attacking, should their attacks have gone off in the surprise round? Or should those readied actions have happened in the first regular round?

EDIT: DM please also let us know if I:12 is difficult terrain.

It's strange and good that you should ask this, I was going to ask other people after the fight what they would have done.

The situation is I already have an Init rolled for the Spider Humanoids- they became aware of your approach, and probably your number and (more-or-less) location when you moved in to the webbed area, yes a fault of the map - but this is a game, not the real thing- they're spiders, you're flies- that's how it works.

Their actions were Readied only to go off when someone moved in to the chamber proper- in to combat effectively when Kali charged in (I didn't want to interrupt the charge- he did such a lot of damage).

I did give you CA to make you think it was a surprise round- note both of Kyalia's attack should have missed, but - what's 3HP amongst friends.

So, out of game mechanics, they knew you were there- they have a set defence, they waited for one of you to get close- away from his friends, they attacked.

Kali moving in to attack triggered the readies- the readied actions went off. That seems reasonable, remember some of this me wanting to make you think one thing while another thing is true.

Also consider this, what if there was another monster in this chamber that wasn't aware that you were there- do you get a surprise round then, even if you can't see the other monster?

Obviously it works the other way round too- the second to last combat you argued that Freggo should have a surprise attack...

Hope this is okay, my interpretation of the rules- seems to work fine.

I'll say it again- I sometimes want you (the players) to think one thing is true (you have a surprise round- the creature's have not spotted you or are not reacting to you), while the truth is something different.

I12 normal terrain.

Cheers Goonalan

 

[Goken100]

It's strange and good that you should ask this, I was going to ask other people after the fight what they would have done.

The situation is I already have an Init rolled for the Spider Humanoids- they became aware of your approach, and probably your number and (more-or-less) location when you moved in to the webbed area, yes a fault of the map - but this is a game, not the real thing- they're spiders, you're flies- that's how it works.

Their actions were Readied only to go off when someone moved in to the chamber proper- in to combat effectively when Kali charged in (I didn't want to interrupt the charge- he did such a lot of damage).

I did give you CA to make you think it was a surprise round- note both of Kyalia's attack should have missed, but - what's 3HP amongst friends.

So, out of game mechanics, they knew you were there- they have a set defence, they waited for one of you to get close- away from his friends, they attacked.

Kali moving in to attack triggered the readies- the readied actions went off. That seems reasonable, remember some of this me wanting to make you think one thing while another thing is true.

Also consider this, what if there was another monster in this chamber that wasn't aware that you were there- do you get a surprise round then, even if you can't see the other monster?

Obviously it works the other way round too- the second to last combat you argued that Freggo should have a surprise attack...

Hope this is okay, my interpretation of the rules- seems to work fine.

I'll say it again- I sometimes want you (the players) to think one thing is true (you have a surprise round- the creature's have not spotted you or are not reacting to you), while the truth is something different.

I12 normal terrain.

Cheers Goonalan

Makes sense to me! Thanks for the explanation.

It does get me thinking though... why ISN'T there always a surprise round? Who's to say there isn't someone in the next room who had no idea that combat was imminent, and is completely flat-footed? Seems like a flaw in the surprise mechanics... but a minor one, so whatevs.

 

[Goonalan]

Makes sense to me! Thanks for the explanation.

It does get me thinking though... why ISN'T there always a surprise round? Who's to say there isn't someone in the next room who had no idea that combat was imminent, and is completely flat-footed? Seems like a flaw in the surprise mechanics... but a minor one, so whatevs.

Because surprise is conditional-

If inhabitant of room doesn't notice your appraoch, and you don't notice it in room- no surprise.

If inhabitant in room unaware still, and you spot it= surprise.

If inhabitant in room aware, and you not= surprise.

It's only when it knows someone's coming and you can see it that it get awkward, and I think better a surprise- one action only, than a full round. Simply because in a full round 1 player can do an awful lot of damage, and is less immersive- if everyone has surprise then they get to take one swift action- and then the fight starts proper.

Sometimes it works- like in this case, other times it just plays like a stunted round, but there's a reason for doing it this way- it's like you have a second to react, rather than on a normal turn where you have six seconds and therefore a modicum of thinking time.

Cheers PDR

Thanks, sorted it all out in my own head now.

 

[Goken100]

If a tree falls in the forest does it get a surprise round?

I just mean that, shouldn't each side proceed on the assumption that they MIGHT be surprising someone on the other side? Furthermore, under that assumption, even if all of the targets that YOU know about are NOT surprised, there might be targets you DON'T know about that ARE surprised. This is because you get to act in the surprise round if you are aware of at least 1 enemy. So by that logic there should always be a surprise round, just in case.

I can think of a few alternate rules to address such logical loop-holes, but they are invariably clunkier than the simple rules of 4e. I think sticking with 4e RAW is the way to go since it works out just fine 99% of the time.

 

[Thanee]

I did give you CA to make you think it was a surprise round- note both of Kyalia's attack should have missed, but - what's 3HP amongst friends.

Besides, even if they know we are there, successful Stealth with Cover still grants CA, and my Stealth roll was pretty good... so, I would say, CA was just fine.

And yeah, with the lousy damage roll it really makes no big difference either way.

Bye
Thanee

 

[tiornys]

I have a couple of problems with the idea of using surprise round mechanics when no one is surprised, but the first that comes to mind is this: it makes it very likely that winning initiative with a melee character is a liability rather than an asset. Few combats start far enough apart that a melee character can't close the distance with a move-charge. However, most combats are far enough apart that a melee character can't engage with a move alone. So, if you use surprise round mechanics, the melee characters who go first can only move, and then the other side gets to charge them.

It also tilts the balance between melee and ranged-capable characters. In general, it tilts combat balance toward standard monsters and away from PCs, elites, and solo monsters. Standard monsters are least likely to care about their move and minor actions, and also are much more likely to have basic attacks that are extremely strong. They also don't have action points. PC's, elites, and solo monsters are all likely to have standard actions that are significantly better than their basic attacks (but which can't be used on a charge), more likely to care about their minor and move actions, and, of course, have action points to spend.

I'm more or less ok with using surprise round mechanics in this case (especially if some other creature is actually surprised right now), since to me, the surprise round mechanic is basically the answer to "can I ready an action out of combat?" (i.e. "no, but you can get a surprise round, which is basically the same idea"). But I don't know that I like the idea of starting every combat with a surprise round, even if both sides are obviously aware of each other.

t~