search for traps

[sunrisekid]

Does anybody know how searching for traps is handled? It seems to be between Perception and Thievery. However, Thievery is DEX-based and geared towards slight-of-hand (perhaps also disabling traps?). On the other hand Perception is described as a static defense so does that mean a player can't "activate" it in order to search for traps?

 

[Boarstorm]

I'm pretty sure Perception can be used either Passively or Actively.

Passive: For when you're whistling tunelessly and tromping down the corrider without a care in the world. Do you notice the tripwire ahead when you're not making any real effort to be aware of your surroundings?

Active: For when you're creeping carefully down the hallway, stopping every few feet to scan the walls for murder holes and the floor for pressure plates.

 

[sunrisekid]

I'm pretty sure Perception can be used either Passively or Actively.

Passive: For when you're whistling tunelessly and tromping down the corrider without a care in the world....

Active: For when you're creeping carefully down the hallway....

Your examples sounds a bit counter-intuitive ;-) Active usage suggests a higher probability of noticing danger; passive usage suggests the general state of awareness of a character at any other given time. (eg, for the bored guard I don't see how his perception would be as high as the guard who is actively on the lookout for intruders.)

The skill description states that Perception is used for noticing hidden objects (traps too, presumably - at least for the rogue), so it seems like this is the skill to use for actively seeking traps.

 

[DreamChaser]

Your examples sounds a bit counter-intuitive ;-) Active usage suggests a higher probability of noticing danger; passive usage suggests the general state of awareness of a character at any other given time. (eg, for the bored guard I don't see how his perception would be as high as the guard who is actively on the lookout for intruders.)

The skill description states that Perception is used for noticing hidden objects (traps too, presumably - at least for the rogue), so it seems like this is the skill to use for actively seeking traps.

I do think that a minor change needs to be made to the above examples.

Passive: You are wandering the dungeon with your senses generally alert for danger: Do you notice the tripwire ahead?

Active: You are wandering through a dungeon and you more carefully examine a particular creature, location, or object: Do you notice anything amiss that you hadn't already noticed?

DC

 

[catsclaw]

Passive: You are wandering the dungeon with your senses generally alert for danger: Do you notice the tripwire ahead?

Active: You are wandering through a dungeon and you more carefully examine a particular creature, location, or object: Do you notice anything amiss that you hadn't already noticed?

I think this is roughly right.

People seem to be missing something: rolling an Active Perception check against a fixed DC hidden object is exactly the same as rolling a hide check against a fixed DC Passive Perception. With the possible exception of ties going to to person who rolls (so a 5% better chance to see something actively as opposed to passively).

I imagine traps have something akin to a hide modifier, like +6. So if you're carefully moving through the dungeon I'd roll d20 + 6 and see if I beat your passive perception. If you stop and actively search a lock before opening it, you roll d20 + your active perception and see if you beat 16. That way you don't need to say "I search the door" for every single door in a dungeon, on the off chance this one is one of the two that are trapped.

 

[Boarstorm]

I do think that a minor change needs to be made to the above examples.

Passive: You are wandering the dungeon with your senses generally alert for danger: Do you notice the tripwire ahead?

Active: You are wandering through a dungeon and you more carefully examine a particular creature, location, or object: Do you notice anything amiss that you hadn't already noticed?

DC

Alright, yeah. The important part of the second example of mine was supposed to be the "stopping and looking" part, not the alertness level.

The point I was trying to get across was that the passive usage was... well, passive. The character doesn't need to do anything to make use of it. On the other hand, the active usage is...

... why am I defining passive and active? You all know the meanings as well as I do.

Sorry, I don't mean to condescend. Carry on, then.

 

[sunrisekid]

Alright, yeah. The important part of the second example of mine was supposed to be the "stopping and looking" part, not the alertness level.

The point I was trying to get across was that the passive usage was... well, passive. The character doesn't need to do anything to make use of it. On the other hand, the active usage is...

I'm thinking that distinguishing between two states of perceptiveness necessarily implies that the perceiver is more likely to notice something if they consciously make the effort to look for something. As I understand, in 3E this is somewhat represented by separate Search and Spot skills.

I have not seen how this is represented by the new rules, if at all, and I was wondering if anyone else would be able to explain the mechanic. Catsclaw has made the best guess so far as I can see, one that seems in line with how the mechanics seem to work; we know that traps have attack scores now so why not also some kind of stealth score to which characters can defend against.

 

[D'karr]

Passive Perception is the equivalent of taking 10 on the skill but not having to declare it.

Active Perception means you roll. That is the only difference.

If you don't mention that you are searching for the trap, your DM will simply roll against your Passive Perception. If you choose to actively look for it, you can roll and attempt to roll higher than your passive score.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Mathematically it's slightly better than 5% better to be active, because not only to you succeed on a tie, but the actual average rolled on a d20 is 10.5, not 10. (So you are just as likely to roll 11 as 10.

Looks like a 7.5% better chance to succeed if you're trying.

Fitz

 

[sunrisekid]

Passive Perception is the equivalent of taking 10 on the skill but not having to declare it.

Is it a flat 10 or are there other factors which contribute to this (WIS, training, etc)?

Active Perception means you roll. That is the only difference.

I must admit, it still seems implausible to me that somebody actively on the alert for trip-wires isn't more likely to notice them than somebody snooze-walking down the corridor.

If you don't mention that you are searching for the trap, your DM will simply roll against your Passive Perception. If you choose to actively look for it, you can roll and attempt to roll higher than your passive score.

And if the player does declare then what is the calculation? Is it different from a Passive Perception? If not why would a player ever state that they are, eg, on the lookout for tripwires if the DM is simply expected to roll against a passive value?

I would be grateful if someone could indicate how these different states of awareness are represented mechanically, if in fact they are.