D&D 5E Second Wind Regeneration

[Tony Vargas]

As written, Second Wind lets Fighters bypass the hit dice limitation on self healing and effectively regenerate every hour.

There is no HD limit on healing, you can drink potions all day long, for instance.

IMC I'm changing it to:

"Second Wind
On your turn, you can use a bonus action to regain hit points equal to 1d10 + your
fighter level. Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest (and have taken damage from combat etc - not self-inflicted) before you can use it again."

Lol. Yeah, OK. That is a perfectly reasonable change. You could also limit it to in-combat use only, a 'heat of battle' kind of thing.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

And what is the difference between an "out of game" thing and an "in-game" thing? I think you're making a distinction there that doesn't exist.

Out-of-game things are things that don't correspond to anything in the game world, and in-game things are things which do correspond meaningfully to things within the game world. The major distinction is that characters know about in-game things, and can discuss them or plan around their use.

Rolling initiative is just something that we, the players, do when we start to care about tracking the passage of time in six-second increments. To the characters, they're always observing everything in real-time. "In-combat" cannot be a mandatory condition to use this ability, because it's a meaningless statement.

Things that have meaning to the character might include "been the target of an attack within the last turn", or "while suffering from the Frightened condition", or even "within one round of attacking or being attack by a creature whose CR is no less than your level -2". Even though characters don't talk to each other about "turns" or "conditions" or "CR", these things each correspond to something that the characters can understand.

They're also inappropriate conditions for triggering Second Wind, because they don't do what you want them to do. If the fighter wants to heal, but has no hit dice left, then you've just encouraged her to go pick a fight so she can get her Second Wind. Which is ridiculous, of course.

Moreover, you've just declared that any character who doesn't jump through these hoops you've set up in order to use this ability, is at an increased risk of death in a subsequent encounter. And as a game designer, you never want the "smart" action to be something that you find ridiculous; you should avoid setting up the rules to encourage that sort of gameplay.

 

[Chocolategravy]

I think @GMforPowergamers nails the house rule below. Don't worry about getting the perfect phrasing or limitations for the power, just warn the players if they abuse or exploit loopholes in the rules (such as taking endless short rests to heal 5x faster than normal) there will be consequences.

I've never had the misfortune of playing with a GM who is so bad they'd call using a short rest ability multiple times to be an exploit.

Rest and hour, murder some kobolds in an 18 second fight, rest an hour = okay, but rest an hour then rest an hour = exploit? Gotta call *facepalm* on that nonsense.

And, realistically, this doesn't dramatically impact play, as the rest of the party will still be healing slowly. The fighter can't go off on their own and adventure. The party adventures at the rate the slowest party member to heal.

No, realistically in low healing campaigns or where the short rest time gets reduced to 4E's much shorter time everyone starts taking fighter levels to regenerate because WotC bungled both second wind and survivor, which is exactly why we have this thread. Thanks to the lack of modularity when anything changes a DM comes up against problems like this and has to manually fix them.

Assuming you're still using HD, try something along the lines of "when spending HD to heal, gain an additional +2 per die spent if the die is a fighter HD."

 

[Jester David]

I've never had the misfortune of playing with a GM who is so bad they'd call using a short rest ability multiple times to be an exploit.

No, realistically in low healing campaigns or where the short rest time gets reduced to 4E's much shorter time everyone starts taking fighter levels to regenerate because WotC bungled both second wind and survivor, which is exactly why we have this thread. Thanks to the lack of modularity when anything changes a DM comes up against problems like this and has to manually fix them.

Huh? You say it's not an exploit and then say WotC bungled things??

Slow healing works well and is an excellent example of modularity. The pace of healing goes from 100% of hp and 50% of HD every day to 50% of hp OR 50% of HD every day.
But it doesn't mesh well with a single ability, and then only if the PC opts to take short rests repeatedly during a day off to rapidly heal faster than the tone of the campaign. It's a potential exploit but not huge, easily fixed by talking to the player.
And I wouldn't call that an example of "bungling" modularity. 5e was always going to be more of a modular form of D&D than a completely modular game.

 

[Tony Vargas]

WotC bungled both second wind and survivor, which is exactly why we have this thread. Thanks to the lack of modularity when anything changes a DM comes up against problems like this and has to manually fix them.

It's true that 5e isn't exactly 'modular' in every sense of the word, and one of those sense is not having clear points where modules snap in (or out). AFAICT, the issue you're alluding to with second wind that the only limit on how much you can heal with it is the number of times you can take a short rest between long rests. Practically, in 'normal' play, that's probably only two or three times and there's no problem. If you were to 'short rest' 8+ times in a row to 'regenerate,' you could just take a long rest and get all you hp (and HD) back anyway, again, assuming a 'normal' game. It's only a problem when you take the game up on its claimed modularity and decide you can take a short rest in 10 minutes or do away with HD or only give a handful of hps back per day of rest that it starts to be a problem.

Sure, if all forms of healing used a single mechanic, and you could just adjust that mechanic to change the availability of such resources in support of the tone of the game, it'd be 'more modular,' in one sense.

The default still works, though. Second Wind isn't terribly abusable because short rests aren't that short and long rest just plain give everyone all their hps back. If, as a DM, you change that, you just need to change Second Wind, too.

Assuming you're still using HD, try something along the lines of "when spending HD to heal, gain an additional +2 per die spent if the die is a fighter HD."

And have Second Wind expend a HD? Or just do away with it?

 

[SilverfireSage]

Out-of-game things are things that don't correspond to anything in the game world, and in-game things are things which do correspond meaningfully to things within the game world. The major distinction is that characters know about in-game things, and can discuss them or plan around their use.

Rolling initiative is just something that we, the players, do when we start to care about tracking the passage of time in six-second increments. To the characters, they're always observing everything in real-time. "In-combat" cannot be a mandatory condition to use this ability, because it's a meaningless statement.

Things that have meaning to the character might include "been the target of an attack within the last turn", or "while suffering from the Frightened condition", or even "within one round of attacking or being attack by a creature whose CR is no less than your level -2". Even though characters don't talk to each other about "turns" or "conditions" or "CR", these things each correspond to something that the characters can understand.

You can just as much say that Initiative is in-game as CR is. CR is an abstract notion of the level of power that a creature has. Initiative is an abstract way of saying that one character reacts faster than another. In combat and out of combat is like saying in a meeting and out of a meeting in the real world. You can easily gauge the distinction in real life, and you can even more easily gauge the distinction in the game.

They're also inappropriate conditions for triggering Second Wind, because they don't do what you want them to do. If the fighter wants to heal, but has no hit dice left, then you've just encouraged her to go pick a fight so she can get her Second Wind. Which is ridiculous, of course.

I know it's inappropriate conditions for triggering Second Wind, but that's what the OP asked for, which is what I responded to. He/she wants a way to decrease the amount of cheese that a player with Second Wind would be able to do in their slow healing game. I proposed that they should make it so that they can only use it during combat, which was likely the original intent of the ability judging by its name and usefulness. I am not saying this is the accurate way to translate what the text in the book states.

Moreover, you've just declared that any character who doesn't jump through these hoops you've set up in order to use this ability, is at an increased risk of death in a subsequent encounter. And as a game designer, you never want the "smart" action to be something that you find ridiculous; you should avoid setting up the rules to encourage that sort of gameplay.

Yeah, I have declared that they have an increased risk of death, because that's what the OP asked for. I'm confused as to what you think this thread is about at this point.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

In combat and out of combat is like saying in a meeting and out of a meeting in the real world.

So, it's just consensus? That doesn't seem right to me. I don't think the players can decide to enter combat, just by agreeing that they're in combat.

"Hey guys, let's have a meeting to talk about battle strategy."
"Hey guys, let's have a combat so I can catch my breath."

Yeah, I have declared that they have an increased risk of death, because that's what the OP asked for. I'm confused as to what you think this thread is about at this point.

The OP wants to actually limit the use of Second Wind to recover HP. Limiting it to combat-only doesn't do that. It just makes it so that the character has to jump through some ridiculous meta-game hoop first.

 

[Saeviomagy]

If you want to totally rule out second wind being "stacking" with itself, make it give temporary hitpoints after each short rest. The player can no longer stack healing from it, but on the upside he doesn't need to spend a bonus action, nor can he forget to use it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

If you want to totally rule out second wind being "stacking" with itself, make it give temporary hitpoints after each short rest. The player can no longer stack healing from it, but on the upside he doesn't need to spend a bonus action, nor can he forget to use it.

Nor is it exactly 'Second' Wind anymore. But, yeah, that could work, and more simply than layering restrictions on it (only useable in combat after you've taken damage that combat, cannot heal more damage than you took so far since initiative was rolled, etc...).

Another variant that can cut down on 'abuse,' is to have it consume HD. Instead of 'free' d10 + level healing, it's "use one or more of your remaining HD." Being able to use HD in combat would be a very real advantage for the fighter, but there'd be no way to 'abuse' it via multiple short rests. It would make the ability significantly less powerful, of course, but that's the idea, to make healing less available, overall. Presumably, he'll be doing something about potions and healing spells, too.

 

[SilverfireSage]

So, it's just consensus? That doesn't seem right to me. I don't think the players can decide to enter combat, just by agreeing that they're in combat.

"Hey guys, let's have a meeting to talk about battle strategy."
"Hey guys, let's have a combat so I can catch my breath."

Do you roll initiative every time before you fight someone? (barring stealth, in which case you do on the second turn) If so, how does that not make it a separate state of gameplay? There is a clear defining beginning (initiative) and ending (no more hostile enemies taking turns). It's not consensus.

The OP wants to actually limit the use of Second Wind to recover HP. Limiting it to combat-only doesn't do that. It just makes it so that the character has to jump through some ridiculous meta-game hoop first.

"The OP wants to limit the use... limiting it ... doesn't do that." I think some part of your idea was missing in that statement.

In his game, he is using the slow recovery option, which means that only hit dice are ever recovered. The length of the rests are not changed. Second Wind bypasses this by making it so that a fighter can recover without having to use hit dice, which would likely become short supplied during the day, as they are the only way to recover normally. A player could potentially simply use his "second wind" six times during the night, counting each hour as a short rest, which would more than likely allow him to recover all of his hit points during a long rest. This is something that the OP wants to avoid. I am proposing that the limiter on short rests should be that they take place during combat, which I defined above. This would stop the "cheese" of recovering all hit points during a "long" rest with slow recovery, make sense with the context of the name of the ability as well as its likely intended use (how do you get a second wind during a rest in real life?) and stop people from jumping through meta-game hoops to recover, as the risk of getting further hurt in combat would be too great for the potential health recovery. I hope I've explained myself thoroughly, because I don't see how I could expand upon this further.