Sell me on the Warlock

[ChrisCarlson]

Well, for one thing one of those two class specific cantrips has not one, but two invocations aimed at improving it specifically.

Oh, so additional opportunity cost class features? That's great. If you want to use them up to be that one-trick pony. Oh, you know what? Clerics get other opportunity cost class features too. Giving them tricks warlocks can't do either.

I'm sure if Sacred Flame had cleric only buffs that occured as you leveled we'd be having a thread about how to make a Cleric without Sacred Flame.

So you are saying that, if such a thing existed, clerics would "need" to take sacred flame? I just want to clarify, cuz it sounds like you just said that.

 

[Guest 6801328]

So you are saying that...

There seem to be a few posters who consistently use this phrase in their responses. Most of the time they're (knowingly?) making a far more extreme claim than was intended.

I.e., in the example above. Gwarok didn't even come close to "saying that". Sure, the two sentiments may be related, and maybe he even might say that. But he didn't.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

There seem to be a few posters who consistently try to undermine by dismissal. Most of the time as a third party trying to be seen white knighting. Often because they didn't like being shown to be wrong, sometimes by whomever they are currently hoping to cast shade on, sometimes not, in another thread.

I.e., in the example above. What Gwarok did, or did not, intend to say is why I asked what I did. Sure, maybe he didn't intend the sentiment I brought to question, maybe he did. But it sure as heck seemed like it to me. And for him to answer. Not you.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Often because they didn't like being shown to be wrong,

That's another thing rampant in these forums. The emphasis on trying to show other people that they are wrong. Not nearly enough "Good point...I hadn't thought of that" or "I can see where you're coming from but I have a different opinion." And definitely not enough, "Ok, upon further reflection I was wrong."

It's an incredibly toxic, hostile, self-congratulatory "community".

 

[TwoSix]

It's an incredibly toxic, hostile, self-congratulatory "community".

I can see where you're coming from, but I have a different opinion.

 

[mellored]

That's another thing rampant in these forums. The emphasis on trying to show other people that they are wrong. Not nearly enough "Good point...I hadn't thought of that" or "I can see where you're coming from but I have a different opinion." And definitely not enough, "Ok, upon further reflection I was wrong."

That applies to human in general.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

That's another thing rampant in these forums. The emphasis on trying to show other people that they are wrong. Not nearly enough "Good point...I hadn't thought of that" or "I can see where you're coming from but I have a different opinion." And definitely not enough, "Ok, upon further reflection I was wrong."

It's an incredibly toxic, hostile, self-congratulatory "community".

I was speaking more of the type of person who was "beaten up" in some other thread, who then jumps into another thread to white-knight and chastise someone else. Pouncing on someone else hoping to prove them wrong or make them look lesser because of some need to feel better about themselves in the moment. It's actually kinda sad, really. And also very toxic for this community.

 

[Gwarok]

Oh, so additional opportunity cost class features? That's great. If you want to use them up to be that one-trick pony. Oh, you know what? Clerics get other opportunity cost class features too. Giving them tricks warlocks can't do either.



So you are saying that, if such a thing existed, clerics would "need" to take sacred flame? I just want to clarify, cuz it sounds like you just said that.

I think the key wordin the first part there is "If". You don't have to take any of that, it is merely an option. If you don't want to be a one trick pony, take something else. Warlocks do in fact have a certain design to them, and if the choices presented do not make you comfortable I think the problem is that maybe you don't want to play a warlock, not that the class is somehow fundamentally flawed.

As to the second part, no that's not what I'm saying. What I was saying is there would be some people that instinctively rebel against the clear lean towards that feature because of it's utility and view the fact it exists as somehow impinging on their roleplay experience with that class. But like the Warlock class, there would be no "need" to take that feature if you didn't want it.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Thank you for responding. And I agree. Even if it had the same number of additional opportunity cost class choices to enhance it, it would still not be a "must have". Just as is the case with eldritch blast.

 

[Gwarok]

Ok, so 9th level warlock, no Eldritch Blast, still good balance of offense, defense, and out of combat utility. Roger that!

Taking basic human, +1 to all stats, using a 27 pt buy with max 15 on any score to start with gets me:

STR 12, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 9, WIS 14, CHA 16. At 4th and 8th I'll be taking a Feat(Med Armor Prof) and +2 CHA bringing my CHA to 18. Now I am going to incorporate 2 uncommon magic items, which by 9th level I don't think is unreasonable for a character to have. If this is in violation of the rules, please let me know.

"Beta" the Warlock.

Level: 9 AC:19 HP:66 Prof: +4 Invocations: 5 Saves: WIS & CHA Background: Urchin

Patron: The Fiend Pact: Blade

STR 12(19*) +2(+4*) * - Gauntlets of Ogre Strength
DEX 14 +2
CON 14 +2
INT 9 -1
WIS 14 +2
CHA 18 +4

Feats: Proficiency - Medium Armor
Skills: Intimidation, Stealth, Religion, Sleight of Hand, Deception, Persuasion

Spells Known: 10 Cantrips Known: 3 * - Patron spell

Spell DC: 16 Spell To-Hit: +8

Cantrips: Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Poison Spray
1st Level: Burning Hands*, Command*, Hex, Protection vs. Evil/Good
2nd Level: Blindness/Deafness*, Scorching Ray*, Darkness, Suggestion
3rd Level: Fireball*, Stinking Cloud*, Remove Curse, Counterspell, Dispel Magic
4th Level: Fire Shield*, Wall of Fire*, Banishment, Dimension Door
5th Level: Flame Strike*, Hallow*, Hold Monster

*EDIT NOTE: I originally had Contact Other Plane in the spell list, but forgot it requires an INT save, which at a 9 INT, is a bad idea*

Invocations: Mask of Many Faces, Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, Beguiling Influence, Devil's Sight

Fiendish Patron Perks: Dark One's Blessing, Dark One's Own Luck

Equipment: Scimitar, Mithril Half Plate(Uncommon), Gauntlets of Ogre Power(Uncommon), Shield, rando adventuring stuff

Ok, that about sums him up. He's got melee capability, decent AC, in case he loses the magic STR gauntlets his weapon is still finesse and with a 14 DEX he doesn't get too hosed. Gave him the Mithril Armor so he can stealth better, but you can take that away too without costing him too much functionality. He can disguise himself well, has plenty of CHA based skills thanks to Beguiling Influence in case he needs to scare, lie or persuade someone as the situation demands, minor illusion as that comes in handy now and then. Devil Sight lets him work in dungeons or at night without a telltale light, and also pairs well with his magical darkness ability. Also, decked in half plate, shield and sword the best part is he doesn't even look like a caster for a bit of additional misdirection to would be enemies that don't know better. I could have a lot of fun with this guy.

To the OP, what do you think?