Sell me on the Warlock

[ChrisCarlson]

And you think sacred flame is an apples to apples comparison with Erdri[t]ch blast?

How is it not? They are both the primary damage dealing cantrip exclusive to their respective classes. How much more apples-to-apples can two game elements get?

 

[FrogReaver]

How is it not? They are both the primary damage dealing cantrip exclusive to their respective classes. How much more apples-to-apples can two game elements get?

Then we disagree on what makes an apples to apples comparison in this case.

You are looking at designation and purpose. I am looking at effectiveness. Pick your apples?

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Then we disagree on what makes an apples to apples comparison in this case.

You are looking at designation and purpose. I am looking at effectiveness. Pick your apples?

Then please, explain how the two cantrips are not comparable. By any standard. If anything sacred flame can be seen as potentially better in a lot of situations.

 

[FrogReaver]

Then please, explain how the two cantrips are not comparable. By any standard. If anything sacred flame can be seen as potentially better in a lot of situations.

I think "some situations" would have been more appropriate. Even then I think it'd be appropriate to convey that those situations are much fewer and further apart.

The 2 cantrips are comparable in some sense. Which is why I said pick your apple. However other non-cantrip non spell features make for a better comparison in the context of this discussion. Why? Because they share equal effectiveness and not simply a similar designation and stated purpose.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Sticking with rules as intended, I'd like to see your awesomeness. Create the best 9th Warlock you can with the one exception being that he does NOT have Eldritch Blast. By "best," you'll have to balance offense, defense, and out of combat effectiveness.I suspect that this will demand a high level of 5e gung fu.

Well lets see, a warlock WITHOUT eldritch blast that balances offense, defense and out of combat effectiveness? I gave this some thought and came up with the best answer to this I could. Introducing......Warlock, the 9th level Bard. I'll post his stats soon.........

 

[Gwarok]

Then please, explain how the two cantrips are not comparable. By any standard. If anything sacred flame can be seen as potentially better in a lot of situations.

Well, for one thing one of those two class specific cantrips has not one, but two invocations aimed at improving it specifically. I'm sure if Sacred Flame had cleric only buffs that occured as you leveled we'd be having a thread about how to make a Cleric without Sacred Flame.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Pick ANY warlock, just dont pick EB and you're all set. here's what I'm going with though.....good mix of versatility, sneakiness, spying and melee...get him a weapon and some decent armor, you can sneak, charm, spy, fight or flee. Go with Human variant for extra skill and feat and you're all set....Lucky feat is AMAZING!!!!! Can kick some ass in melee, but not too much. He gets in over his head, no problem invis and fly away......need to get into that castle, disguise self and be the butler, need to provide support, easy peasy, fireball then try to dispel enemy mages spells before they hurt you or your friends. I have found this build very useful. Although in MY build it does have EB/AB...

Stats: whatever you want, recommend maxing out Dex and Cha though, but whatever's got the flava you're looking for.....

Feats, Traits and other Cool Stuff!

Feats: Lucky, War Caster, Medium Armor
Class Traits:
Dark One’s Blessing: Gain 17 temp HP whenever I defeat a foe
Dark One’s Own Luck: Add d10 to ability check or saving throw, recharges on short or long rest
Fiendish Resilience: Gain resistance to one damage type of my choice, can change with a short rest (usually slashing)
Mystic Arcanum: Allows use of 6th level and above spell slots
Invocations:
Life-Drinker: Add Cha bonus (+5) to damage done with pact weapon
Thirsting Blade: Take an extra attack when using the attack action with pact weapon
Invocation of your choice.......whatever you want to replace Agonizing blast. Summon Elemental can be quite useful.
Otherworldly Leap: Can cast Jump spell at will with no material components or spell slots used.
Devil’s Sight: Can see in darkness up to 120ft (including magical darkness)
Mask of Many Faces: Can cast disguise self at-will

Spellbook (Fiend Patron, those spells are included)

Spell Slots: 3, all cast as 5th level slot, regain the slots (1st through 5th level) after a short rest
Cantrips: Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Friends,
Level 1: Burning Hands* (15ft Cone), Command*, Charm Person, Hex, Protection from Good and Evil, Armor of Agathys
Level 2: Blindness/Deafness?*, Scorching Ray*, Darkness, Invisibility
Level 3: Tongues, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Stinking Cloud, Fly
Level 4: Fire Shield, Wall of Fire, Dimension Door
Level 5: Flame Strike, Hallow, Scrying, Hold Monster

 

[Darkwing Duck]

--snark deleted--

My point earlier that all those contrived builds could be made better by just adding Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast did not mean that "DPR is all that matters."

But damage is...well, let's just say it's "occasionally useful". And if you can add a ton of damage AND survivability (because you don't have to be in melee range) for one cantrip and one invocation, then in terms of "balance" it seems like that's a no-brainer choice. You still have 7 other cantrips and 4 other invocations for fun/useful stuff. If you want to be a melee-range combatant most of the time, that can still work.

And then if you add Repelling Blast it's not adding more damage, it's adding some amazing non-damage utility, both defensively (keep them away) and offensively (push them off the bridge).

Maybe if you had titled the thread and written the introduction differently, and made this simply a fun game of "what's possible without EB?" or "Warlock build that EB isn't primary attack?", folks would have responded differently.

It is easy and dull to add Eldritch Blast. This thread is seeking a challenge.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Maybe it's like rolling a Light Domain Cleric without Sacred Flame. Still not entire equivalent, but closer.

 

[Jabborwacky]

I just want an excuse to serve the great and benevolent space flumph. May his noodley appendages ever guide you and your enemies receive redemption in his laser eyes' divine radiance! He'll even grant you a free flumphy-comfy space pillow! What's that? Only the most comfortable pillow in the entire universe! Duh! Totally worth my sanity!