Sequels to Successes

Carnivorous_Bean said:
Well, if it adds anything to the discussion
No offense, but I don't think it adds anything more to the conversation than my stating that no one in my group is remotely interested in this new system.

I think everyone agrees that there are some people who will love it and some people who won't. The question is, not even whether a majority will switch. Clearly a large majority will. The question is: where is the break point that 4E fails to live up to the success that is already part of the 3E history?
 

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Mourn said:
About as negative as they were on 2E, and as negative as TSR was on 1E and OD&D.

Yeah, the big thing now is that there's more to loose. I don't know for certain, but I'd wager pesos on the fact that 3e is doing better than 2e and 1e and OD&D did. When convincing the 2e folks that 3e was better, it didn't take much convincing: those who swore that it wasn't D&D anymore because, I dunno, they got rid of THAC0, were such an extremity that they didn't impact the reception of 3e that much.

Now, they face the challenge of increasing on a success. I'm willing to believe 3e isn't as strong as it was in '00, but I doubt that it's ceased turning a tidy profit for them.

I think they know this, too. That's why they're making a point of letting the world know about how easy it is and how much the DDI will let you play with your buddies all over the world. They want to grow outside of 3e's current audience.

I don't really blame the designers and developers for knocking 3e. Honestly, they've spent the better part of two years doing that in the office already, in trying to figure out how they want to make 4e better at doing some things that 3e kind of flailed at. They're (probably) justifiably proud, and believe that their additions are sincere improvements over an excellent, but flawed system. They're going to say "This is so much better!" because they're really intimate with the rules. For the rest of the world, it might only be marginally better, and perhaps "not better enough."

I'm noting that they're going to be a victim of their own success. As much as some people have noticed that high-level play is twisty, you have to factor in "How many people care enough about that to spend $90, and $30/month for the next 10 years?" There reaches a point where it's "Good Enough." Where another set of core books won't improve the flaws enough to be worth the money.

But I think the contingent of D&D fans who care more about the brand name than about the rules is very high, perhaps high enough that with those guys + the outliers that the changes are recruiting important enough for + the new blood, D&D doesn't need people that think that 3e is "good enough," just like they haven't needed members of any edition that thought those editions were "good enough." The worst they could do is make enough noise and division that someone who might get newly into 4e would be scared away because of the impression, which won't hurt D&D's core, though it might have an effect on how well the game can grow (and thus its' long-term ability).
 

Spatula said:
Really. I'd like to see a link to such an argument, because frankly I don't think that anyone has said that in seriousness.

And WotC can tell me they fixed stuff and it's super-awesome all day and all night. Until they (or the playtesters - remove the NDA already!) actually spell out what they did so I can judge for myself, it's all meaningless.

No, the WotC preview articles have repeatedly criticized 3e for not being good, not being fun, and so on. The old encounter design preview (wherein Mearls entertainingly misrepresents how EL works) and the "4e has mine carts!" preview leap to mind.

It amazes me that we read the same forums. I've seen what Cadfan is pointing out time and time again. People say, "Hey this is great in 4e" and the stock response is, "Well, in my game of 3e we could already do that."

Look at any thread relating to skill challenges.
 

Hussar said:
It amazes me that we read the same forums. I've seen what Cadfan is pointing out time and time again. People say, "Hey this is great in 4e" and the stock response is, "Well, in my game of 3e we could already do that."

Look at any thread relating to skill challenges.
What does that have to do with grappling rules...? I was asking for an actual example of Cadfan's claim that anyone is seriously extolling the virtues of 3e's grappling rules.
 
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BryonD said:
No offense, but I don't think it adds anything more to the conversation than my stating that no one in my group is remotely interested in this new system.

I think everyone agrees that there are some people who will love it and some people who won't. The question is, not even whether a majority will switch. Clearly a large majority will. The question is: where is the break point that 4E fails to live up to the success that is already part of the 3E history?

Well, if I'm understanding you correctly, then that question can only be answered if, at some time in the future, we all get access to precise sales figures for 3e and 4e. If 4e ends up selling more, then it's a sequel more successful than the previous sequel. If it sells less, then there's a "Sequel Problem."

I still feel that car models are a better analogy than movie sequels, but apparently, that idea doesn't wash. ;)
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
But I think the contingent of D&D fans who care more about the brand name than about the rules is very high, perhaps high enough that with those guys + the outliers that the changes are recruiting important enough for + the new blood, D&D doesn't need people that think that 3e is "good enough," just like they haven't needed members of any edition that thought those editions were "good enough." The worst they could do is make enough noise and division that someone who might get newly into 4e would be scared away because of the impression, which won't hurt D&D's core, though it might have an effect on how well the game can grow (and thus its' long-term ability).

Don't forget all the old timers who are excited about the new rules. Not everyone who's switching cares more about the brand name than the rules.

I'm sure that's not what you meant. I was just hoping to get in before someone goes on a Kamikaze Midget thinks all of us who like 4e are morons who're more interested in form than substance rant.
 


Ah, thanks Henry. I guess I should have added, "aside from Derren or Lizard." :) That some people oppose any change isn't a surprise but I'm not sure if it qualifies as "a lot of critics" (Cadfan) vs just a vocal minority.
 

There is one huge advantage that 4e has over 3e.

WOTC isn't making any new 3e books.

Its an obvious statement but its important. For those groups who want the latest thing, who want to keep getting new books, or just want to be included in the most current dnd, they will convert. Oh sure, some will moan and groan, but they will still do it.
 

Spatula said:
Ah, thanks Henry. I guess I should have added, "aside from Derren or Lizard." :) That some people oppose any change isn't a surprise but I'm not sure if it qualifies as "a lot of critics" (Cadfan) vs just a vocal minority.

ROTF. Y'know, when you asked the question, those names and a couple of others jumped to mind immediately. :D
 

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