Sexism and presumed sexism in RPGs

[Alzrius]

If you were making a female PC (and maybe a woman), would you choose:
Magic Bikini Armor = Padded Armor +2 (+4AC)
Elven Chain armor + (=5AC give or take, too lazy to look it up)
Bikini Plate Armor = partial plate (+2AC)
Studded Leather = (+3 AC)

With no magical bonuses, you're almost always likely to choose a full suit over a partial suit (sexy armor). If magic bonuses are involved, you'll still probably take the full suit in the wieght class you want with the magic bonus.

The issue I have here is that I don't agree with the premise you've set up. Even presuming that we go with the default assumption that those are the only items available to raise AC (which seems unlikely), you aren't taking into account all of the issues I raised in my previous post.

If one lowers her Dex so that her total Dex bonus plus AC bonus is less than what she'd get with a lighter armor that doesn't cap her Dexterity as much, she'd do with the latter armor. If she's a spellcaster, and one cuts down on her ability to cast spells (% failure chance) more than another (especially if she can cast defensive spells), she'll choose the lighter armor, etc.

The scenario you've crafted is right only within the context of itself, and doesn't match a lot of what I see at the game table.

EDIT: This is also drifting away with the original point I was raising about magic armor. Quite simply, if you tweak the premise so that the four choices are...

Magic Bikini Armor = Padded Armor +4 (+6AC)
Elven Chain armor + (=5AC give or take, too lazy to look it up)
Bikini Plate Armor = partial plate (+2AC)
Studded Leather = (+3 AC)

...then it proves your original point (about always going for the highest bonus) and mine (that such armor is the smarter choice, but this isn't conveyed in a still image) both.

 

[TanithT]

The Book of Erotic Fantasy, if we ignore the schlock, has an excellent section discussing procreation, dimorphism, and some interesting twists and turns. While I have never have characters come out and rebuild the Rod of Seven Parts onscreen I consider that, in times of conflict, there is a pretty high proclivity for the level of busy-getting to rise.

I'm depicting life. A small facet thereof in a world of my creation, but it is there. There are people who will walk around in clothing that may offend, or nothing at all.

Good. Great. Like I said, adult campaigns are really cool, and the BOEF is pretty good source material if you're running that.

Which is awesome, but if you happen to be running a campaign that focuses on political intrigue, war, strategic alliances and betrayal, the sex stuff is useless. Actually, worse than useless. It gets in the way. It doesn't support your story or help flesh out your characters.

I'm just not seeing how my personal enjoyment or lack thereof should affect the overall gaming populace.

It doesn't.

Now, count up how many minorities you see. How about positive depictions of non-heteronormative characters? I don't mean sexless or off-screen, but an honest-to-Mystra count of those characters in comparison to the 'porn' in the source.

Magic can explain the armor. What explains the racism and homophobia?

Pretty much the same cultural impetus and collective impact of marketing dollars that drive the sexism. Lame, ain't it?

 

[Janx]

The issue I have here is that I don't agree with the premise you've set up. Even presuming that we go with the default assumption that those are the only items available to raise AC (which seems unlikely), you aren't taking into account all of the issues I raised in my previous post.

If one lowers her Dex so that her total Dex bonus plus AC bonus is less than what she'd get with a lighter armor that doesn't cap her Dexterity as much, she'd do with the latter armor. If she's a spellcaster, and one cuts down on her ability to cast spells (% failure chance) more than another (especially if she can cast defensive spells), she'll choose the lighter armor, etc.

The scenario you've crafted is right only within the context of itself, and doesn't match a lot of what I see at the game table.

EDIT: This is also drifting away with the original point I was raising about magic armor. Quite simply, if you tweak the premise so that the four choices are...

Magic Bikini Armor = Padded Armor +4 (+6AC)
Elven Chain armor + (=5AC give or take, too lazy to look it up)
Bikini Plate Armor = partial plate (+2AC)
Studded Leather = (+3 AC)

...then it proves your original point (about always going for the highest bonus) and mine (that such armor is the smarter choice, but this isn't conveyed in a still image) both.

A player is going to choose the armor that best fits his/jher AC goal and DEX limitiations. I ignored MaxDex in my example because I forgot about it and I seldom play PCs with a low DEX.

My point is, there's no rules for Sexy Armor in D&D. Near as I can guess it'd be a form of partial or "new" armor. To make a PC wearing bikini armor to match a painting, you'd have to use such a rule.

To then claim there's also magic involved to help protect the uncovered bits in the art is to translate that as a magic AC bonus to whatever armor she's wearing.

Since magic AC bonuses are a pretty standard mechanic in D&D, assuming it's in the player's power/choice, they'll take the best AC they can get. Why settle for Bikini Leather Armor +2 when you can wear Leather Armor +2 which has a higher AC and fits your game objective.

I feel you're quibbling over a point on whether somebody would wear light or heavy armor in general. A PC will wear an armor type that makes sense for their stats and class. Within that, they will tend to maximize the AC bonus they can get.

I suspect a player won't choose bikini armor over "real" armor in the same effect zone. They may, however, declare that the armor looks sexy (which has not practical purpose and in real life may actually be a hazard).

 

[TanithT]

Bikini Plate is a fashion statement or a salvaged armor that happens look good statement. It's not on the rack at ArmMart.

Also known as an invitation to a sucking chest wound, a fatal gut wound, multiple limb amputation, a fast ticket to negative hit points, etc.

If you say it's magic, reality can fly cheerfully out the window and you can have +5 Magnetic Boobie Cups Of Infallible Orc Arrow Attraction. Because, boobies. And cartoon physics with boobies. Hey, it's your game. Don't expect me to play in it, but I'll laugh my @$$ off from over here.

Funniest Ren Faire costume I ever saw was a woman in hammered steel and brass bikini cups with a bunch of arrows glued to each cup. The sign she wore, carefully hand lettered, read, "I'M SURE GLAD I WAS WEARING MY ARMOR!"

Priceless.

 

[Janx]

Also known as an invitation to a sucking chest wound, a fatal gut wound, multiple limb amputation, a fast ticket to negative hit points, etc.

If you say it's magic, reality can fly cheerfully out the window and you can have +5 Magnetic Boobie Cups Of Infallible Orc Arrow Attraction. Because, boobies. And cartoon physics with boobies. Hey, it's your game. Don't expect me to play in it, but I'll laugh my @$$ off from over here.

Funniest Ren Faire costume I ever saw was a woman in hammered steel and brass bikini cups with a bunch of arrows glued to each cup. The sign she wore, carefully hand lettered, read, "I'M SURE GLAD I WAS WEARING MY ARMOR!"

Priceless.

I get the feeling you didn't really read my last posts on the game stats of such armor.

Such items don't exist in D&D. They don't exist in my game

I further posit that if they existed, the simple math on them would encourage a player to choose a different armor with the same magic bonus.

Why choose +5 Magnetic Boobie Cups Of Infallible Orc Arrow Attraction which gives a total AC bonus of +7 when you could choose:
+5 Studded Leather Of Infallible Orc Arrow Attraction which gives +8 to your AC instead with all the other armor attributes being the same.

Ignoring the real-life issues with bikini armor, the game stats pretty much just give a basic +1 or +2 to AC, reinforced by whatever magic bonus is on top. The more magic covers the AC shortfall to rationalize why the sexy woman in the picture isn't in any danger, the more a player would rather have that same bonus on better physical armor to get the best of both worlds.

 

[TanithT]

I get the feeling you didn't really read my last posts on the game stats of such armor.

I did, and you have a point. Mine was mostly "game mechanics good, silly Ren Faire costume funnier."

 

[Lord Mhoram]

I never had a problem with Covenant himself. It's not like you're supposed to like him.

When I was in High School and read the series... I identified with Covenant more than I had identified with any other protagonist of any other book I have ever read.

Shows what a messed up kid I was.

I personally have no issues with the character, or the books. My username says that. But I do understand why people might not.

 

[Janx]

How do you visually illustrate "plusses" on magic armor, or things like the fortification magic quality? How do you show that someone's wearing bracers of armor, a ring of protection and an amulet of natural armor instead of just mundane bracers, a ring, and an amulet? Particularly in illustrations specific to games like D&D, where a great deal of magic items (e.g. the Christmas Tree effect) is not only assumed, but implied by the game itself?

To rewind the discussion a little bit, I don't have any good ideas on how. Maybe paint in a glowing radiance or show it in an action painting of the blade being repelled by some force as it hits the skin.

Otherwise, its invisible.

Because of that, the point I've been trying to make is that IF you had this magic effect on your skimpy armor (or whatever gear), you'd be better served to use that same magic on better armor of the same desired weight classsifaction.

Why wear a Chainmail Bikini and magic to protect the unprotected bits (granting more AC bonuses I assume), when you could wear full chain mail or lighter armor, with the same magic effects, and get a better AC bonus.

I'm not poking holes at the real world impracticality of the Bikini Armor.

I'm saying that in game terms, the rationalization hoops of game stats, magic, items, etc it takes to make a sexy PC that matches what is seen in a stereotypical painting is such that you could deploy those same magics and items on a PC with armor from the RAW and come out ahead.

I assume that it is inherently obvious that if a full suit of Chainmail armor is worth +5 AC, then a bikini made of Chainmail Armor, which covers less area grants a lower AC bonus. Let's agree that it is +1 AC for discusssions sake.

Therefore, to get the effects you describe of not being vulnerable by applying magic that might not be depicted in the picture, you would be applying spells, enchantments and other magic items possibly not visible in the painting.

These effects would then follow the D&D rules. Pretty much all D&D effects are applicable to all things in the same category. So you can have a Vorpal Dagger, Vorpal Longsword, or Vorpal Greataxe.

The same would apply to the chainmail bikini. That which you would apply to make it a viable combat-ready PC in a chainmail bikini may be further optimized by using those same goodies on armor from the standard equipment list.

Basically, I can come to the conlusion that chainmail bikinis are a bad idea in D&D, not because of real life, but because of simple logic within the D&D rules.

It's possible, because of this, I dissassociate art with what happens in D&D. Art is not a realistic representation of what is happening in the D&D game, which is itself fantastical.

So, I can accept that a painting of a chainmail swordwoman may remind me of D&D and I might associate it with your female barbarian character, though I do not literally imagine that your PC looks like that, let alone actually dresses like that.

 

[Voadam]

In my perception, and I take full responsibility for the fact that it is my perception, it truly has not. I can't open a single RPG book or comic, or play almost any video game, without seeing a large number of sexualized female figures while the male characters are primarily presented as normal characters - eg, as the real people who are not sexualized.

It's not so much that I get personally mad or feel insecure when my boyfriend exclaims over the large amount of gratuitous bewbage there is for his delectation in just about every RPG sourcebook and video game. Heck, I'll even save that stuff when I see it so he can enjoy it. Or we look at it together, though he is always guaranteed to get more than I do from it because we are both heterosexual and the vast majority of the sexualized images will be female. There's a little for me here and there, but the percentages really stink.

Porn for consenting adults isn't a problem. What I do mind is the sheer amount of gratuitously sexualized female imagery, including in places that don't really fit or make sense. The message that is being overwhelmingly sent is that females are supposed to be sexualized. Not just sexy with other consenting adults where it's totally appropriate to be sexy, but sexualized outside that context. It's a subtle but pervasive and IMO very serious difference.

I'd compare the atmosphere of generally sexualizing women to being immersed in an ocean. If you have always lived there, it can be hard for you to really think about the fact that the water is wet, or salty. It just seems like, yaknow, how things are, how things have always been, and how they are always supposed to be.

Yes, it is all the eff over the gaming industry. I see it just about every single day, and I facepalm to it just about every single day. I respect that your experience may be different, but for whatever it's worth, this is mine.

You feel this way about the 3e, 3.5, 4e Player's Handbooks or the 4e PH replacement Heroes of the X books? These are the core books for the last 12 years that the majority of RPG players will be referencing as the RPG baseline and would be the common denominator and baseline for the industry and playing community.

I'm not sure what you are seeing as the large number of sexualized female portrayals in the art from these.

Am I misremembering and there a large number of sexualized female portrayals that I just don't remember? Are you seeing gratuitous sexualization while I am not? Can you provide some examples from one of these PH books so that we know we are talking about the same thing?

 

[Voadam]

I assume that it is inherently obvious that if a full suit of Chainmail armor is worth +5 AC, then a bikini made of Chainmail Armor, which covers less area grants a lower AC bonus. Let's agree that it is +1 AC for discusssions sake.

I think that is a mistaken assumption. Most DM's will say they are wearing leather or chain or plate and leave it at that. If a player picks an image for their fantasy character with skimpy tight leather they think is cool or boob window armor they think is cool, or impractical fantasy jumbo plate with lots of parts sticking out they think is cool, I believe most DMs will say "fine, whatever" and not "How functionally impractical, take an AC penalty."