Sexism and presumed sexism in RPGs

[TanithT]

I'd have a lot less issues with half naked women if they were not slim and large-breasted, but looked like the average population, maybe even on the fat side. Gamers tend to claim that you don't want your PC to be on the fat side even if you are fat IRL, but that's not quite true to my experience. You just need to make it possible for the players.

I don't think adventurers need to look like couch potatoes.

HOWEVER, a female fighter who looks like a supermodel or who is super skinny with huge breasts is completely hosed for stats, unless you postulate some kind of magical bonus that doesn't work the way normal physics and biology does.

When I was powerlifting and fighting in the SCA, at the top of my form, my body fat percentage (calipered pretty regularly by my trainer) was usually about where normal female ranges should be. I wasn't really thrilled to have it dip any lower. I did not want that for a whole lot of reasons; my aim was not to look like a model, but to be very, very strong and fit. And to make sure the "rhino hiders" bloody well took notice when I hit them.

My upper body strength still wasn't up to decent male levels, but I could (and did once) pick the back end of my car up out of a ditch. Small car, but still. Strength is useful stuff. After a nasty back injury that literally paralyzed me for awhile, I stuck mostly to leg presses and machines for rehab and laid off squats and deads. And that was years ago, but it's still not a problem for me to pile almost all the 45's I can fit on both sides of the leg press and go to town for reps. 450 is a very comfy warmup, 750 is a decent workload that doesn't strain my injured (and now much older) back.

The point of all this isn't really to brag - there's about a million seriously competitive women who lift who can outdo the best numbers I ever made without even trying - but to state that lifting + SCA fighting + a few other things I wa doing at the time isn't a bad analogue for what a female fighter/adventurer has to actually do to survive.

One of the reasons I never, ever aimed for "model looks" even while dieting rigorously and training to optimize for my goals is that *I needed the weight*. As in, if I lost too much, I'd get my @$$ handed to me both in SCA combat and on the job. I bother zoo animals for a living, mostly of the sort that can kill you if you screw up your safety protocols, or if you're not quick enough or strong enough to handle their responses.

The first time an alligator stood up and walked away with me on its back while I was doing a cranial blood draw, when I didn't expect it and wasn't prepared for it, was at the bottom of a "cutting cycle" where I'd dropped too much weight. Guess how quick I started slamming extra protein shakes. It *looked* good - the boyfriend certainly said so - but it was going to get me killed. Did not want. Not worth it. I couldn't max my muscles out any faster short of using illegal drugs, but I could raise my body fat percentage to the point that I a) looked pretty much normal/average/stocky in clothes and b) could hold my own and not get knocked down or walked away with quite so easily.

You know what happens when someone who is skinny with big boobs goes head to head in a physical combat with someone who is more solidly built? Or with a big critter who has an argument to make? Absolutely nothing good. Found that one out myself, the hard way. Fortunately it was a pretty calm, keeper-habituated animal and nothing worse than surprise happened to me when I lost control of the situation. I did have a second and much nastier outcome involving a different type of critter in a similar situation, where I lost my footing in a cage due to just not weighing enough. And in the real world, no clerics, yo. Scary stuff.

Your game, your rules, but female fighters who look like that are going to get killed unless they eat a sammich. Or a whole lot of sammiches. I get the feeling that most of them would tend to make that choice. The motivation to weigh more so you can not die significantly outweighs vanity. At least it did for me.

 

[Lwaxy]

Well, here we hit another realism problem. Unlike the chainmail bikini, though, realism argues for the current depictions, rather than against.

The Western World is well-known for being well-fed and poorly exercised. If your game takes place in modern America, and the characters are supposed to be average people, then by all means they should look like average people.

But, D&D is typically a game of action-adventure heroes. They make their way through the world running, jumping, lifting, and fighting. Assuming you live through it, that kind of life should leave you pretty darned fit, and looking more like someone who could make it through special forces training without too much trouble, and less like a couch potato.

Depends on how you start them out. In my latest Eberron campaign, we do have a fat and some very undertained characters, simply because before they were kicked out of their comfort zones, they often did lead lazy lives. It makes for some hilarious situations.

And a wizard who has been in his academy all his life may well be fat. Over time that may change, sure, but I've played a fat wizard before and that was fun. From getting stuck in a well to not fitting through the dimensional hole cast by himself, but he was far from being only comic relief.

Now a fat rogue is a bit harder to imagine but I remember watching a game at a con where there was one and it was quite cool, too. The rogue got out of several arrests because the town guard never believed someone of his shape could be a cat burglar.

 

[Loonook]

Depends on how you start them out. In my latest Eberron campaign, we do have a fat and some very undertained characters, simply because before they were kicked out of their comfort zones, they often did lead lazy lives. It makes for some hilarious situations.

And a wizard who has been in his academy all his life may well be fat. Over time that may change, sure, but I've played a fat wizard before and that was fun. From getting stuck in a well to not fitting through the dimensional hole cast by himself, but he was far from being only comic relief.

Now a fat rogue is a bit harder to imagine but I remember watching a game at a con where there was one and it was quite cool, too. The rogue got out of several arrests because the town guard never believed someone of his shape could be a cat burglar.

A fat rogue isn't useful?

Politely disagrees .

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[TanithT]

@Loonook and others who were asking for examples:

On Free RPG Day, I went and got a swag bag of modules, maps and gaming supplements from my local gaming store. I just took the bag provided; I did not add or subtract anything based on personal choice. I think we can call this a good selection of modern (specifically published for yesterday's event) promotional material from RPG companies, representative of what is out there on the market today.

My summary of all the images in all of that material is here.

The results are a mixed bag, with two supps that were awesome and depicted females realistically (though barely there at all in the second one with only a single female image + one probably female character in the far background), one neutral (to me) with no character art and one skimpy-armor male drow image in a back cover ad, and three major offenders where the men were dressed normally or for adventuring (armor, weapons, etc) and the women were in bikinis, miniskirts, lingerie, harem girl outfits, peasant dresses, tiny bathing suit "armor", etc.

This is fairly representative my experience as a female gamer looking at a random selection of RPG source material. There's some decent stuff out there that rocks for good female adventuring character depictions (thank you, Pathfinder "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun" module). There's also some really bad-message-sending stuff that has women fighting in harem-girl outfits with dangly cloth strips over their hoo-hah in the *majority* of the human images depicted. As in, they're literally illustrating the entire book with cheesecake. Also, gratuitous "rape is imminent" imagery in one supp that didn't have a plot-supported reason to be there.

Still scratching my head over that one, because, why. Other than wheeee, rape. Just for fun, in the middle of your random illustrations of men and women. None of the women were depicted as anything but NPC props in that one; only the men had armor or weapons, or were shown as adventurers or active characters of any class.

Overall, do you think a woman looking at the entire contents of the Free RPG Day swag bag will feel like she is entirely welcome as an actively participating part of this subculture?

It's certainly true that we have the ability to scan through all this material, keep the good stuff and the neutral stuff and toss the creepy stuff in the trash or just not buy it. But the question is whether the good stuff is good enough to outweigh the discomfort factor of having to look through the not so good stuff. For a lot of women, it isn't - they'll toss the creepy book down in disgust and never come back for more. Or be willing to enter the gaming room at a convention - I heard that a lot when I talked about gaming or tried to recruit for games in other areas of the fandom at large conventions. A lot of fannish women literally will not go anywhere near the gaming room or gamers, because they believe, rightfully or not, that the entire subculture is "creepy" and unwelcoming to women, or not for women.

Is the good stuff in gaming good enough to outweigh the knowledge that there is a lot of material out there that depicts women this way, and subtly or not so subtly teaches gamers to think of and treat women this way? For some it will be, for a lot of others it won't. The fact is that a woman who wants to game is going to keep getting hit in the face with the creepy stuff any time we randomly browse RPG books, and we're going to keep having run-ins with the socially clueless guys who really do think of and treat women at the gaming table like they are treated in the artwork.

The clueless guys who act that way and who can not tell a fantasy character depiction from how they should treat a fellow gamer in the real world who happens to be female are definitely not the majority of male gamers, but they do exist. Unfortunate but true.

I absolutely do not blame anyone who is NOT personally acting that way for the guys that do. I recognize that there is not much the good guys can do, except to tell the bad guys to knock it off and that it is not okay if you see it at your gaming table. And maybe to recognize that handing a woman a book that shows men as the real adventurers and women as the props or the fashion pinups who don't get the same armor, equipment or practical/useful clothes and gear that the men do is going to have an effect on whether or not they feel welcome or well represented in your game.

 

[Loonook]

@Loonook and others who were asking for examples:

On Free RPG Day, I went and got a swag bag of modules, maps and gaming supplements from my local gaming store. I just took the bag provided; I did not add or subtract anything based on personal choice. I think we can call this a good selection of modern (specifically published for yesterday's event) promotional material from RPG companies, representative of what is out there on the market today.

My summary of all the images in all of that material is here.

The results are a mixed bag, with two supps that were awesome and depicted females realistically (though barely there at all in the second one with only a single female image + one probably female character in the far background), one neutral (to me) with no character art and one skimpy-armor male drow image in a back cover ad, and three major offenders where the men were dressed normally or for adventuring (armor, weapons, etc) and the women were in bikinis, miniskirts, lingerie, harem girl outfits, peasant dresses, tiny bathing suit "armor", etc.

So two games, made to be retroclones/throwback games (DCC/Cosmic)... And one that depicts a woman being victimized in a game renowned as one of the most intricate games around that uses a heavy amount of historical research to recreate an analogue of Medieval Europe (including its mythology)... Wherein, yeah, there is a chance the bad guys are going to have a high probability of victimizing women... As they did in the historical material it is based upon.

Intent vs. Impact... Again. Please, count your pages... And then open Vogue, Cosmo, etc randomly and scan that same amount... Intent. Vs. Impact.

It's certainly true that we have the ability to scan through all this material, keep the good stuff and the neutral stuff and toss the creepy stuff in the trash or just not buy it. But the question is whether the good stuff is good enough to outweigh the discomfort factor of having to look through the not so good stuff. For a lot of women, it isn't - they'll toss the creepy book down in disgust and never come back for more. Or be willing to enter the gaming room at a convention - I heard that a lot when I talked about gaming or tried to recruit for games in other areas of the fandom at large conventions. A lot of fannish women literally will not go anywhere near the gaming room or gamers, because they believe, rightfully or not, that the entire subculture is "creepy" and unwelcoming to women, or not for women.

Yeah... Unwelcoming to women. Which is weird because, from my own personal experience and viewing of others, the lack of welcome comes from both sides. I have a pretty good amount of humor, charm, and alleged intellect from all of my fancy book-learnin' that seems to come across well enough... I rarely lack for companionship. But if I mentioned I played D&D in 90% of the first conversations with those I date?

Allllright. Kthxbye.

The clueless guys who act that way and who can not tell a fantasy character depiction from how they should treat a fellow gamer in the real world who happens to be female are definitely not the majority of male gamers, but they do exist. Unfortunate but true.

Really? Yeah, because the culture should bow to the lowest denominator to prevent issue. I have had a minimum of 1 female in every group I've run since 1997. My highest concentration was 4:1. I've dealt with crazy on both sides of the gender gap...

And it has nothing to do with the material presented. The table is a place where people can chat, and enjoy themselves. And we have discussions...

Out of... at least 60 continuing players over the years? I've had one female player who made unwanted sexual advances to a male player, and a male player who white-knighted for a female CHARACTER to the point of pulling a weapon.

Yeah, the table can be curt, and cursing exists, along with plenty of other situations. We cover the gamut of gender, orientation, race, body type, etc... But ehh, my biggest issues with players turn to be pretty much just crazy. Of course I don't mind hurtful words being used at the table, or arguments... and my female players have, for the most, stayed more constant than my males.

I know, I am a horrible, knuckle-dragging monster... But I guess I just have that roguish neanderthalic charm.

I absolutely do not blame anyone who is NOT personally acting that way for the guys that do. I recognize that there is not much the good guys can do, except to tell the bad guys to knock it off and that it is not okay if you see it at your gaming table.

And the fact is that you seem to do so repeatedly by claiming that our hobby is full of porn and dehumanization towards your centaur in this race. Or would that be an unhorsing?

The fact that it seems I am one of the 'bad guys' per the wonderful responses I have received on this threads aside, I know porn when I see it. I happen to know myself well enough (and especially know myself when seeing porn) to not sensationalize imagery. Cosmic Patrol covers the 40s/50s/60s sci-fi gamut...

And I wouldn't mind seeing exploitation elements in that text. Ignoring or whitewashing a zeitgeist does not make it go away, and does a disservice. The Middle Ages SUCKED for women. And men. And any creature with a pulse. You know how all of that sexual oppression was going on?

As a male I could be castrated, lose an arm, hung, beheaded, quartered, or just plain ol' fashioned run through/chopped because I had the audacity to protect you from being raped. Or while protecting my cattle. Or preventing someone from lighting my barn on fire. Or just for giggles.

Hell, in the later Middle Ages I may against my will be unsexed simply because I can sing well... And girls were icky.

Depictions of Rapunzels and Rolands are our specific grand view of a society which sucked for everyone, and as medievalists look back we see that the world is not the kind of place I would willingly go to via my DeLorean.

And maybe to recognize that handing a woman a book that shows men as the real adventurers and women as the props or the fashion pinups who don't get the same armor, equipment or practical/useful clothes and gear that the men do is going to have an effect on whether or not they feel welcome or well represented in your game.

Again, I'll point to Pathfinder, or the iconics in various editions. Your arguments are seeking validity against the whole through an examination of a niche part. If I contract gangrene in my little toe I don't shoot myself in the head. Eliminate the piece from your gaming life and all is well.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[TanithT]

Intent vs. Impact... Again. Please, count your pages... And then open Vogue, Cosmo, etc randomly and scan that same amount... Intent. Vs. Impact.

If I throw a rock straight up in the air with the intent of looking up to watch it fall, it's still going to impact my face. I don't think the intent makes the impact hurt any less.

I don't read women's fashion magazines because I already know what's in them and I have no interest in being sent those messages. Are you suggesting that I should just quit reading RPG sourcebooks for the same reason?

Oh wait. I mostly have. And that really is pretty sad to me. Gaming used to be a huge part of my life, and now, much less so.

At what point it stops being worth it is individual to every person. I will say that it took a very long time for it to get to that point for me. But it got there, and honestly I'd rather go without gaming for months than risk sitting down at a gaming table with people I don't know. I'd rather write all of my own material based on the old stuff I already have than browse for anything new.

Yeah... Unwelcoming to women. Which is weird because, from my own personal experience and viewing of others, the lack of welcome comes from both sides.

Does that mean that you're mad because women feel unwelcome and respond accordingly with "no thank you, do not want"? Or are you contending, "She started it!"

I rarely lack for companionship. But if I mentioned I played D&D in 90% of the first conversations with those I date?

Allllright. Kthxbye.

Well, more power to ya, but I would not personally feel comfortable dating someone who wasn't as nerdy as me.

Yeah, the table can be curt, and cursing exists, along with plenty of other situations.

Who the &%$#@ said anything about cursing? I've never, not one single time, heard a complaint from a female gamer about cursing at the table.

And I wouldn't mind seeing exploitation elements in that text. Ignoring or whitewashing a zeitgeist does not make it go away, and does a disservice. The Middle Ages SUCKED for women. And men. And any creature with a pulse. You know how all of that sexual oppression was going on?

Two issues here. One, if there had actually been a text justification for the image, I'd have passed it as being sensible in the context of worldbuilding and background. Sometimes you gotta show that bad people do bad things, and this is a legitimate slice of life. But sticking it randomly into the middle of a bunch of other depictions that show that women don't wear armor or use weapons or go adventuring? Sends a message.

Two, who the hell wants to play games where your character sucks? I mean, realistically, most people in the Middle Ages were illiterate turnip farmers. The high point of their day was when the family cow kicked over the milking stool. If they were lucky enough to have a family cow. Do you really want to play Cows & Turnips, the thrilling new ultra realistic Middle Ages RPG?

Yeah. I don't either. Like most gamers - note that I don't make a gender distinction here - I actually want to play an adventuring character that, you know, has adventures. And can do cool stuff and have cool weapons. And is powerful, and not boring as ^$*@.

Your arguments are seeking validity against the whole through an examination of a niche part. If I contract gangrene in my little toe I don't shoot myself in the head. Eliminate the piece from your gaming life and all is well.

I've done that. There are things I just don't do any more and places I don't bother looking any more, because the fun to facepalming ratio is too high for it to be worthwhile.

What makes me sadder the more I think about it is just how much I've walked away from because of too many ugly experiences and too high a percentage of things that make me feel unwelcome or alienated in the hobby. The price of avoiding the no-fun stuff is actually very, very high, because they genuinely are pretty pervasive in any random sample I am likely to encounter.

Do I need 'validation' for this? No. I'm not looking to prove anything. I'm just saying that this is my experience. This is what it feels like to be me. Your mileage is likely to vary, because you aren't me and I'm not you. We've had different experiences. But if you were even remotely interested in knowing what it feels like from the perspective of one person who games and is female, here you go. That is all.

 

[Loonook]

If I throw a rock straight up in the air with the intent of looking up to watch it fall, it's still going to impact my face. I don't think the intent makes the impact hurt any less.

And no more literal and obtuse view of impact vs. intent exists. The point is that the intent (depict an era of a specific genre or an actual historical epoch) is extremely skewed under your perception of its impact. If I was attempting to create an replica of the Jungle Book and removed its tones of racism, sexism, and weird inappropriate hypno-touching snakes I would not be making a replica. I would be putting my own personal spin on it.

The Warner 11, Song of the South, Speedy Gonzalez, Blazing Saddles, Birth of a Nation, Uncle Tom's Cabin, Huckleberry Finn... All get attacked for their depictions through the lens of today. They were the entertainment of the period, and ignoring the source material is silly. There are those who take a source material and do a great job of humanizing and affecting out interpretation of a piece (using my own love of Shakespeare I'll point to Raul Julia's depiction of Othello, Olivier as Shylock in Merchant of Venice)... but we must be aware of the material's history and cognizant of it when working within the historical and social mores of the era.

And you have every right to reinterpret your specific views of 40s/50s/60s pulp and scifi, or the 12th century. But removing or selectively interpreting those depictions are going to really make the piece ring hollow... Because the removal of those concepts, however distasteful, removes a lot of the depth. And our own observation, interpretation, understanding, and inversion provides a wider basis on conventions of the genre.

I don't read women's fashion magazines because I already know what's in them and I have no interest in being sent those messages. Are you suggesting that I should just quit reading RPG sourcebooks for the same reason?

And yet they hold up a lens to a far wider scope of cultural narrative than our niche hobby... And as I look through a few here I find much more sexuality expressed per page than I have ever seen in the average RPG rulebook, campaign setting, or novelization.

Oh wait. I mostly have. And that really is pretty sad to me. Gaming used to be a huge part of my life, and now, much less so.

And eliminating yourself due to images by artists speaks more to your desire to game than the materials. I hate the fact that every adventurer is ripped... But it doesn't prevent me from running my game in a way I see fit.

At what point it stops being worth it is individual to every person. I will say that it took a very long time for it to get to that point for me. But it got there, and honestly I'd rather go without gaming for months than risk sitting down at a gaming table with people I don't know. I'd rather write all of my own material based on the old stuff I already have than browse for anything new.

And the old stuff you have has a much, much higher level of the alleged sexism than the new materials, as I have pointed out repeatedly.

Does that mean that you're mad because women feel unwelcome and respond accordingly with "no thank you, do not want"? Or are you contending, "She started it!"

I am stating that the prejudice against the hobby perpetuated through sitcoms, movies, etc. are going to drive people away. And we'll go into this further below...

Well, more power to ya, but I would not personally feel comfortable dating someone who wasn't as nerdy as me.

And I don't eliminate someone from my personal dating pool because they don't like the same things I do. After meeting up, learning about the hobbies I practice, etc. I have taught about 75% of the girls I have dated various RPGs/CCGs... And I have gotten to learn about massotherapy, photography, horseback riding, archery, cards, scrapbooking, tailoring, veterinary care, music, web design...

All from nice, attractive members of a society where my group is marginalized for being sexist and misogynistic... All because of perceptions.

Who the &%$#@ said anything about cursing? I've never, not one single time, heard a complaint from a female gamer about cursing at the table.

I have. Again, I guess we're just dealing with a lot of different types of people.

Two issues here. One, if there had actually been a text justification for the image, I'd have passed it as being sensible in the context of worldbuilding and background. Sometimes you gotta show that bad people do bad things, and this is a legitimate slice of life. But sticking it randomly into the middle of a bunch of other depictions that show that women don't wear armor or use weapons or go adventuring? Sends a message.

No, it doesn't. If the same picture included a man you would have the exact same message... At least in my eyes. This is again a viewing through biased lenses.

Two, who the hell wants to play games where your character sucks? I mean, realistically, most people in the Middle Ages were illiterate turnip farmers. The high point of their day was when the family cow kicked over the milking stool. If they were lucky enough to have a family cow. Do you really want to play Cows & Turnips, the thrilling new ultra realistic Middle Ages RPG?

A lot of people. Harn is a pretty popular system in the places where it is accepted due to the realism and low-magic setting. And your interpretation of a peasant in the Middle Ages shows the fact that maybe realism or history isn't your bag. That's fine.

Yeah. I don't either. Like most gamers - note that I don't make a gender distinction here - I actually want to play an adventuring character that, you know, has adventures. And can do cool stuff and have cool weapons. And is powerful, and not boring as ^$*@.

And there are a lot of people who play E6. Or games where they have very limited HP, and a single stab takes them out. It's the way of the world that your ideas (High Fantasy egalitarian) are not necessarily the majority across the entire hobby.

I've done that. There are things I just don't do any more and places I don't bother looking any more, because the fun to facepalming ratio is too high for it to be worthwhile.

Alright.

What makes me sadder the more I think about it is just how much I've walked away from because of too many ugly experiences and too high a percentage of things that make me feel unwelcome or alienated in the hobby. The price of avoiding the no-fun stuff is actually very, very high, because they genuinely are pretty pervasive in any random sample I am likely to encounter.

Have you ever felt that, maybe, just maybe, your sampling is a case of correlation!=causation? I'm sorry, but as we've been going over this I've discussed with several female members of previous groups and its just... Not there in the way you're seeing it.

Do I need 'validation' for this? No. I'm not looking to prove anything. I'm just saying that this is my experience. This is what it feels like to be me. Your mileage is likely to vary, because you aren't me and I'm not you. We've had different experiences. But if you were even remotely interested in knowing what it feels like from the perspective of one person who games and is female, here you go. That is all.

I have the experiences of plenty of female gamers who don't have these feelings, and no one who corroborates them at all. I would suggest taking a little more time sampling the things you deride, as it seems your sampling of information regarding fantasy RPGs seems to be pretty dated by your own admission.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Janx]

If I throw a rock straight up in the air with the intent of looking up to watch it fall, it's still going to impact my face. I don't think the intent makes the impact hurt any less.

you feel entirely different if you threw the rock and it hit you, than if you thought I threw the rock at you.

Worse, how do you think I feel when you mistakenly blame me for throwing the rock when I didn't do it.

Intent has an unseen force greater than the physical damage from any impact.

 

[Elf Witch]

A lot of people. Harn is a pretty popular system in the places where it is accepted due to the realism and low-magic setting. And your interpretation of a peasant in the Middle Ages shows the fact that maybe realism or history isn't your bag. That's fine.



And there are a lot of people who play E6. Or games where they have very limited HP, and a single stab takes them out. It's the way of the world that your ideas (High Fantasy egalitarian) are not necessarily the majority across the entire hobby.

My issue when ever some one brings up history which by the way I love reading about and gaming is this. In our middle ages there was no magic even low level magic would have changed how things worked. Women would not have been so easily subjugated if they could drop a fire ball or a magic missile on your head. The nobles ruled by power and outlawing peasants from taking up the sword. Sorcerers and other mages who don't need schooling could help even that playing field. A god calls a young peasant to become a paladin it is going to change how peasants are viewed.

And BTW the woman who lived back then didn't dress in the bimbo clothes some gaming art puts them in. Look at drawings of Joan of Ark she wore the same armor as men no boob cups. In some eras they may have shown cleavage but they didn't have wide areas of body showing.

In the dark ages and the roman times some of the brit warriors fought nude but covered in woad but that was both men and woman.


I enjoy realism to an extent but there are some topics that are just not kosher with modern players and one of those that seems to upset a great deal of people is the subject of rape. Yes we know it happened and still does happen but it is really necessary to have artwork that is hinting that rape is about to happen?

I have played E6 and there is no way you can compare the PCs at sixth level to the peasant of or even the nobles of the middle ages. For one thing you have magical healing , fire balls , animating the dead, the removal of disease, speak with the dead, or having people flying through the air.

Even in the SCA where we try and recreate the middle ages we don't actually live them we use ice and refrigerate our food. I use a sewing machine to make garb and o one would dare treat a female SCA member the way woman were treated in the middle ages. So I don't see why it is necessary to have it in fantasy role playing games.

 

[TanithT]

If I was attempting to create an replica of the Jungle Book and removed its tones of racism, sexism, and weird inappropriate hypno-touching snakes I would not be making a replica. I would be putting my own personal spin on it.

The Warner 11, Song of the South, Speedy Gonzalez, Blazing Saddles, Birth of a Nation, Uncle Tom's Cabin, Huckleberry Finn... All get attacked for their depictions through the lens of today. They were the entertainment of the period, and ignoring the source material is silly.

If you choose, you can certainly make a Huckleberry Finn/Tom Sawyer RPG, complete with authentically liberal use of the n-word. What you can't do if you make that choice is complain that more African-Americans aren't buying or playing your system. Because, duuuh. It's not likely to be much fun for them.

And eliminating yourself due to images by artists speaks more to your desire to game than the materials.

What I desire at the moment is to use language unbefitting to the forum. But I'll limit myself to pointing out that it took many years and a lot of horrific experiences to take me from being a fanatic gamer who clocked all-weekend long sessions and multiple 8-hour slots at every gaming con I could get to, wrote articles for the original Dragon magazine and pretty much lived for gaming, to where I am with the hobby today.

Apparently I didn't convey this very well. Because what you're saying is that you're quite sure that the experiences that discouraged me were merely trivial, and if I really liked gaming, I would ignore them. Would that be an accurate summary?

And the old stuff you have has a much, much higher level of the alleged sexism than the new materials, as I have pointed out repeatedly.

Some does, some doesn't.

If the same picture included a man you would have the exact same message... At least in my eyes. This is again a viewing through biased lenses.

Funnily enough, while I have seen a number of sexual violence images where women are depicted as the victims and/or in need of rescue, I honestly can not remember a single image or storyline in a mass market RPG where a male was depicted this way. Of course there may be some that I've just never seen.

I have the experiences of plenty of female gamers who don't have these feelings, and no one who corroborates them at all.

Okay, where are they and why aren't any of them in this thread speaking for themselves?

I would suggest taking a little more time sampling the things you deride, as it seems your sampling of information regarding fantasy RPGs seems to be pretty dated by your own admission.

Oh, I get to look at all the new stuff, because it's in the house - I'm not the only nerd in residence here. And too often I facepalm and put it back down again. There is stuff that is getting better, but some of it is actually getting worse as far as I can tell. *cough cough Exalted Princess Cameltoe cough cough*