Sexism and presumed sexism in RPGs

[Loonook]

I kinda like art this way. My only wish is more skimpy dressed sexualized males. Who also look badass. Like those ladies nowdays mostly do.

And I completely encourage the beefcakes

[MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION] Oh, RE: Infant/Child Mortality vs. Filth Fever: I actually compiled a simple macro/paste scheme (looking to actually make it macro by the million, but have it doing a macro of a little over 150k/run)... After 8 iterations (1.21 million individuals over the span from birth to adulthood with a 2% infection chance per year, much lower than the 5-20% chance for flu) produces a 8.9% mortality rate.

It is interesting to note that the mortality rate actually would seem to form a standard peak and valley if applied across the ages as the average Constitution gain from Birth to Adulthood (going from d6 to 3d6, or a rough average of 7 points) is only a single point off of the loss due to old age. I think I may have to actually create another chart for the Elderly, and I feel the numbers may actually change if I ran the instances of saves out to, lets say, 4 saves versus 3 as the extra save actually provides for another point of failure (we assume an auto-pass with the spreadsheet).

I actually expected a much higher rate of mortality due to the fact many children will have difficulty passing their initial checks; however, it seems that my original hypothesis was slightly off.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Fifth Element]

The Society for Creative ANACHRONISM doesn't perform a full recreation?
That is kind of the point of the A in SCA, no?

Role-playing GAME.

 

[Umbran]

The Society for Creative ANACHRONISM doesn't perform a full recreation?
That is kind of the point of the A in SCA, no?

It is he Society for CREATIVE Anachronism. You want the Society for Destructive Anachronism, the bunch of splitters who killed themselves off when they tried to reconstruct the Black Plague, and succeeded.

So, we have the Good Parts version. You know, the one without the gannet...

 

[Umbran]

I enjoy realism to an extent but there are some topics that are just not kosher with modern players and one of those that seems to upset a great deal of people is the subject of rape.

So much so, that we have a policy on this one. Which is to say, DON'T GO THERE.

We've already seen one quote which, taken out of context, could be incredibly hurtful. So, I ask you all, please, to leave that thread by the wayside. Thanks.

 

[Loonook]

It is he Society for CREATIVE Anachronism. You want the Society for Destructive Anachronism, the bunch of splitters who killed themselves off when they tried to reconstruct the Black Plague, and succeeded.

So, we have the Good Parts version. You know, the one without the gannet...

And yet I am tired of hearing people discuss their understanding of combat because they have taken to the field in modernized as-close-as-we-understand-it recreations of arms and armor. You know, where we use machines that we created within the last three centuries in the creation, and whose use are not life-or-death or even preventing injury.

Again, I do not consider myself an expert on the Civil War if I go out, eat a passel of hardtack, and fire a period rifle in uniform. Or that I understand the depth of what my grandfather went through in his time in the service because I played paintball once.

We exist in a society where the very idea that difference exists leans towards verboten territory. We alter the depictions of everything in our minds to a highly romanticized view of the period... And then are shocked to learn that that view wasn't the reality of the period. The SCA, like Civil War reenactments, makes its claims on 'we do something close to X, therefore we are doing x'. You do not see dressage riders claiming to have an intricate understanding of the roles of knights in battle... On this appeal to authority I'm not buying.

And while SCA is a fun activity, it is nothing more than a paintball session with more equipment and (apparently) chimeric meals. I'm glad that that is something enjoyed... But it does not make a member of the SCA into a medievalist.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Not so much seeing a lot of male depictions this way - for starters, they are much more statistically likely to be wearing clothes. Even when their bodies are shown, the message is not "look at this submissive, powerless, sexualized object to be gazed at and acted upon". The message is more like "Here is a big, strong, physically powerful man - he can get all the girls."

Since when is a picture of a barbarian girl in a bikini with a big sword kicking some ass considered powerless ?

If more pretty, silk-draped elfboys in helpless or submissive positions showed up in the art, I'd be good with that argument. If we saw attractive, scantily clothed men with soft, 'come-hither - I am here for your pleasure" expressions, I'd certainly agree.

Isn't that pretty much every male elf?

 

[Elf Witch]

And yet I am tired of hearing people discuss their understanding of combat because they have taken to the field in modernized as-close-as-we-understand-it recreations of arms and armor. You know, where we use machines that we created within the last three centuries in the creation, and whose use are not life-or-death or even preventing injury.

Again, I do not consider myself an expert on the Civil War if I go out, eat a passel of hardtack, and fire a period rifle in uniform. Or that I understand the depth of what my grandfather went through in his time in the service because I played paintball once.

We exist in a society where the very idea that difference exists leans towards verboten territory. We alter the depictions of everything in our minds to a highly romanticized view of the period... And then are shocked to learn that that view wasn't the reality of the period. The SCA, like Civil War reenactments, makes its claims on 'we do something close to X, therefore we are doing x'. You do not see dressage riders claiming to have an intricate understanding of the roles of knights in battle... On this appeal to authority I'm not buying.

And while SCA is a fun activity, it is nothing more than a paintball session with more equipment and (apparently) chimeric meals. I'm glad that that is something enjoyed... But it does not make a member of the SCA into a medievalist.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

It may not be exactly the same as it was during the middle ages but making the armor and getting hit in that armor gives you an idea of how it felt and what works and what does not.

There have also been serious historical study done on medieval armor.

Plus it does not take a genius to figure out that the more bare skin the more the danger of being hit being a more deadly blow.

In all the museums and all the pictures I have studied of armor I have never once seen any peek a boo armor.

 

[Elf Witch]

Since when is a picture of a barbarian girl in a bikini with a big sword kicking some ass considered powerless ?





Isn't that pretty much every male elf?

Wow way to complete dismiss everything that has been said. No one has said that a female barbarian in a bikini with a sword is powerless if the male barbarians dress the same way.

It is when you take the female character and dress her totally different than her male counterparts in way to make her as sexy as possible.

I have seen plenty of artwork that does not show male elves dressed the way you describe but way to go to introduce a straw man to deflect valid criticism of some the way female characters are drawn in RPGs.

 

[Elf Witch]

Here is my experience. Me and other women/girls who play rpg:s have grown really thick skin. This is kinda requiment or you'll end up stopping rpg:s. Men/boys however, can be more unsure and easily emotional. This is because of some extra attitudes they have to endure. I have seen pretty much all kinda behavior in different groups. Granted in my country cilrcles were smaller, and there were much less unstable people, much less actually than I've seen in some other, more causual hobbies.


I woudn't blame art so much. It's like that because of pop-cultere of fantasy. Fantasy has not gotten so much updates than some other genres because it happens in "once-upon a time lands". This is why some skin colors get passed more than others.

Problems come from people in real life/various internet sources/general cultural attitude/father&brother issues. Sensetive people tend to become oversensetive, relating usually quite other things than what happens at gaming table. However, then these people tend to lash out with high negatives on social issues that irk them. This problem however is not related just to females in rpgs.

But rpg:s all classicly set to be more of a male-hobby. Girls not allowed, getting attitude, dismissing comments based on your sex "oh no more girls", "you are here for your boyfiend, right" "you don't know the rules" "you can only play female characters". I've gotten all of those and so much more. I don't care but I know quite a few girls driven away by attitude.

Maybe some people here argue on art so much, since they feel it enchances boys vr girls and attitude that comes with it. I think this is so much more complicated.

I kinda like art this way. My only wish is more skimpy dressed sexualized males. Who also look badass. Like those ladies nowdays mostly do.

I disagree with a lot of what you have said here. I do think that art work that portrays female characters as bimbos in stripper armor gives legitimacy to the way some guys treat female gamers. It is subtle in its message but the message is there.

Your statement that it is there because of pop art does not make it okay there are a lot of issues with the woman are portrayed in pop culture. Sex should be used for sex not to sell a tractor or a gun. Yet scantily clad models are used to sell both.

I like hot guys and I like looking at them but I don't want them in my RPGs unless that is their purpose you know like a drawing of an incubus. They can be hot and still dressed appropriately for the situation.

 

[TanithT]

And that is completely within their rights and I would consider it acceptable for their wallets to make a decision. You have made your decisions know on these products.. Which you have not touched, nor know anything about, based on outdated knowledge.

Did I not just say that a large amount of new RPG material is always in the house, and that yes, I do look at it? Fairly often I don't have to look very far before being discouraged by what's inside. But I certainly do look.

When did I complain about the hobby's lack of anything? It is self-selection preventing you from entering into the hobby.

Entering the hobby? Dude. I wrote for Dragon magazine back in the day. I ran for RPGA tournaments. I learned to game on the original D&D boxed set. Do you mind toning the condescension down just a notch?

Visual selection of the product based on your specific ideas and judgments of previous observations of individuals/materials that you perceive as similar.

Once again, please tone the condescension down a notch. I can read. I don't just pick it up and look at the pictures, or just the cover. Though the visual illustrations are a significant part of the overall impression I get from a product. Because I'm not blind in addition to being not illiterate.

First you threaten to commit an assault on my person, now language?

Please to also turn the hyperbole down a notch. People may not be able to hear you over the sound it's making.

Glad to hear you have changed.

Did you actually just read how I was describing my personal experiences in gaming over the years, and how they changed my comfort level with the hobby for the worse, and say that you're glad to hear it? Really?

But you have a seemingly quite active 'anti-RPG' lean in general, and don't seem to be playing any sort of games at all per this discussion, save for design of an unseen material.

Extrapolating anything I've said into my being "anti-RPG" is hyperbole. It just isn't so.

Other than my online game, which has been running for over a decade with most of the same players - pretty cool, and some really fine, dedicated writers/roleplayers there who happen to live in different states - there's occasional tabletops with my friends. Though all of us are busy, so they're pretty infrequent. I'm no longer willing to sign up for random games with people I don't know, and that's limited my opportunities quite a bit.

I would love to see what you're working on... Feel free to post anything and we can discuss them.

Meh. Go peruse the Dragon archives if you care that much about seeing what I wrote. Or don't. I'm way past the point of wanting to share anything with a general audience, and particularly not here.

See: Menzo. An entire city of matriarchy that enslaves men to torture and force into rituals to create spider monsters? Wait, that may not count..

Oh, it does, though I'm not convinced that enslaving and torturing any group of people is a particularly good thing. Still, it makes for excellent conflict background for storytelling, and it's nice that there is at least one counterexample to the 'women are always the victims' meme.

But do any of the stories the source material is telling in Menzoberranzan really focus on how helpless and powerless the males are compared to the females? Or are the males still depicted as pretty damn strong characters? *cough cough Drizzt Do'Urden and Jarlaxle, cough cough**

Because they don't post on forums? Sorry, I just don't see the point of calling my female friends to post an opinion that is... pretty well established. But alright.

Hey, the lurkers support me in email.