Sexism and presumed sexism in RPGs

[TanithT]

Since when is a picture of a barbarian girl in a bikini with a big sword kicking some ass considered powerless ?

Depends on the context. When all the women are wearing bikinis and all the men are in armor, it sends a message. Like, that women are supposed to prioritize looking hot for the guys over minor little details like not getting killed.

Also depends on whether she's showing as much comparative muscle as the male barbarians - eg, does she look as much like a female bodybuilder or powerlifter as the guys look like male bodybuilders?

Isn't that pretty much every male elf?

Um, no. I enjoy pretty, scantily clad elfboy art when I see it, but it's extremely rare in a mass market RPG. I can find it on the Internet, but it's still hard to find in comparison to the cheesecake.

Closest thing you find is "gladiator" and "barbarian" stuff where you see big burly hulking strong dudes flashing a lot of muscle and looking bad@ss. I would not characterize them as pretty or come-hither, nor say that they are being depicted as objects to be acted on as opposed to being the actors.

 

[Loonook]

Did I not just say that a large amount of new RPG material is always in the house, and that yes, I do look at it? Fairly often I don't have to look very far before being discouraged by what's inside. But I certainly do look.

Yes, again, judging books by covers.

Entering the hobby? Dude. I wrote for Dragon magazine back in the day. I ran for RPGA tournaments. I learned to game on the original D&D boxed set. Do you mind toning the condescension down just a notch?

Yes, and what have you done lately? If I leave my house I guess I do not enter it ever again... That is quite strange. For someone who complains about misconstrued language...

Once again, please tone the condescension down a notch. I can read. I don't just pick it up and look at the pictures, or just the cover. Though the visual illustrations are a significant part of the overall impression I get from a product. Because I'm not blind in addition to being not illiterate.

I'm glad that you, again, use the cover image to a book that discusses magic as your decision to back away from a product. I'm guessing you don't use Eldritch Wizardry in your Basic games?

Please to also turn the hyperbole down a notch. People may not be able to hear you over the sound it's making.

When a sorceress covered in tattoos is considered pornography? I lost the control over the hyperbolostat about two pages ago.

Did you actually just read how I was describing my personal experiences in gaming over the years, and how they changed my comfort level with the hobby for the worse, and say that you're glad to hear it? Really?

I have yet to hear of a personal experience actually occurring at the gaming table. And yes, your ability to change and define what you want to do with your life is laudable. If you decide to leave the hobby you have made a decision. Free will does not mean you get your favored choice, and free speech does not prevent your offense.

Extrapolating anything I've said into my being "anti-RPG" is hyperbole. It just isn't so.

Uhhuh. Sorry, I should have stated 'anti-RPG-industry', or perhaps 'industry intolerant'. You seem ready to jump down the throat of any depiction that does not fit within your limited scope.

Moderation in all things but what we want is not moderation. It's imposing a viewpoint.

Other than my online game, which has been running for over a decade with most of the same players - pretty cool, and some really fine, dedicated writers/roleplayers there who happen to live in different states - there's occasional tabletops with my friends. Though all of us are busy, so they're pretty infrequent. I'm no longer willing to sign up for random games with people I don't know, and that's limited my opportunities quite a bit.

So you have self-eliminated yourself from the pool of available players. Again, I am not seeing how this is a detriment to either side, as you are able to practice your specific views within your limited scope.

Meh. Go peruse the Dragon archives if you care that much about seeing what I wrote. Or don't. I'm way past the point of wanting to share anything with a general audience, and particularly not here.

I would be happy to. Have the entire collection. What did you write under then? I'll index and look you up.

Oh, it does, though I'm not convinced that enslaving and torturing any group of people is a particularly good thing. Still, it makes for excellent conflict background for storytelling, and it's nice that there is at least one counterexample to the 'women are always the victims' meme.

So men being forced into psychosexual rituals to produce demons and powerful creatures is acceptable because it provides 'background'... Alright. My mistake...

But do any of the stories the source material is telling in Menzoberranzan really focus on how helpless and powerless the males are compared to the females? Or are the males still depicted as pretty damn strong characters? *cough cough Drizzt Do'Urden and Jarlaxle, cough cough**

In a theocratic matriarchy Drizzt and Jarlaxle are far below the ranks of most of the elite of Menzo. As Jarlaxle runs what amounts to a hidden House for male Drow who have thrown off their shackles or been driven to destruction he is a power-broker. Drizzt actually has to run, out of the Underdark and into the wilderness, then to his adventuring party.

If you look through the old 2e Menzo text you'll actually see that Jarlaxle is not exactly a first among equals; in fact, most of the Matron Mothers and even their right hands are of a power over that of Jarlaxle with his Fighter build. If you made similar transfers to that made for 3e for Jarlaxle you'll see that it places the MMs and their right hands into the upper low to mid Epic levels... But again, a fighter who has a dagger-bracer and a few tricks up his sleeve (no mental control, moderate weapon deflection) doesn't hold up to priestesses and (in the case of one house) Psions who can do a lot more harm.

Hey, the lurkers support me in email.

Oh noes! Not... A parody song! Truly you embarrass me with your in-depth critiques. I'm stating my points, and what I have personally gathered from conversations. Others have now posted... But ehh, probably not worth reading as they were immediately attacked for their own viewpoints as a female player.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[TanithT]

Yes, again, judging books by covers.

I don't think you're reading the same things that I'm writing.

Yes, and what have you done lately?

Nothing I have any interest in discussing here. Given that you took a handful of random fantasy books I'd read and turned that list into an attack against me for my imagined political viewpoint, my level of WTF with this communication has gone far beyond my willingness to volunteer anything else.

I'm glad that you, again, use the cover image to a book that discusses magic as your decision to back away from a product. I'm guessing you don't use Eldritch Wizardry in your Basic games?

You may want to check f you're actually in a parallel universe, because I really don't think you're responding to anything I've actually written here.

When a sorceress covered in tattoos is considered pornography? I lost the control over the hyperbolostat about two pages ago.

The sorceress covered by magic tattoos makes sense, yo. She needs access to them. Did anyone say that particular image had no reason to exist except for the pornographic value?

I have yet to hear of a personal experience actually occurring at the gaming table.

This is becoming a very familiar refrain. I don't actually think you're reading or responding to what is being said here.

What did you write under then? I'll index and look you up.

PM me if you care that much and I'll dig up the issue numbers. And, kindly spare me the annoyance of turning their contents into a political position or a personal attack.

So men being forced into psychosexual rituals to produce demons and powerful creatures is acceptable because it provides 'background'... Alright. My mistake...

What part of not thinking that torture and slavery is good for anyone did you miss?

In a theocratic matriarchy Drizzt and Jarlaxle are far below the ranks of most of the elite of Menzo.

Sure, and that dude in full plate standing next to the bikini chick is only a first level fighter. Your point?

 

[TanithT]

So much so, that we have a policy on this one. Which is to say, DON'T GO THERE.

I would love to not go there. Ever. And I promise I'll try hard not to bring inappropriate references onto this forum.

Thing is, how do you even talk about the stuff that makes women feel uncomfortable about the hobby and NOT mention stuff like "well, there's rape imagery in this roleplaying book, and some of us have had bad experiences around the gaming table involving male players who wanted to roleplay it."

Seriously. How?

Would be really nice to declare that it doesn't exist in RPG-land. Except that isn't true, and that's part of the problem.

You can't really ask the questions, "Why does our hobby have a reputation for being 'creepy' in the outside world and even inside of fandom in general? Why do a nontrivial number of women say that they feel uncomfortable with gaming and don't want to be anywhere near a gaming room?" without mentioning this issue. Because it's a factor, and pretending it doesn't exist kind of cripples the discussion.

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

I think that you can reference the rape imagery without discussing rape.

 

[Loonook]

What part of not thinking that torture and slavery is good for anyone did you miss?

Sure, and that dude in full plate standing next to the bikini chick is only a first level fighter. Your point?

Yes... Torture and slavery are not good for anyone... When we are specifically judging gender, and the idea that gender politics are at play in Menzo seems to be meaningless to you. "Women suffer throughout fantasy, provide an example where men struggle" *Provides example* "well EVERYONE suffers there."

You know when I said that, in your example the woman may be assaulted, but men are going to be hung, gelded, ripped to shreds, tortured? Yeah, you seem to not get that man matter. It is women matter or we all matter, never a specific point where even a corollary.


Did you not notice the whole 'being forced to consort with demons to create monsters'? How about 'killing helpless males to appease the goddess'?

What is interesting is that Gygax was in contact with Andre Norton during the creation of the Drow, even letting her sit in on games the led to the writing of Quag Keep... Hrmm...


Again. You accuse me of not reading, and I have read... And there have been no specific examples from you. You can PM me with the issues and I would be happy to read your articles.

And yes, you are literally judging a book by its cover. The mention of the Exalted book with the cameltoe sorceress? Directly off of the cover of a book on Magic in the series (Savant and Sorcerer).

Then let us discuss your full plate fighter vs. bikini-fighter. Unless we're playing 4e... What 1st level fighter has plate? Second, the bikini-fighter who relies on Dex is no different than any depiction of the monk in any 3.x or up materials:

Amazingly enough, not all fighters will be wearing full plate. Hell, I cannot recall a PC in my games who has worn full plate in ages. The combination of available unarmored bonuses, even at 1st level, can allow for expenditures into better weaponry and other options. And once you get into magical armor availability? Hell, as stated there are glammer armors, ethereal armors, and even armor that hides itself as a ring, torc or pin... Armor that manifests as smoke in a bottle... Armor that is tactile-responsive... And several are from a single Dragon article that I have been looking for for about a month to no avail.

In short, you are arguing that two individuals, who may have different classes, races, skill sets, etc. who stand near each other should look exactly the same? I'm not eating ACP to be politically correct.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[TanithT]

And yet I am tired of hearing people discuss their understanding of combat because they have taken to the field in modernized as-close-as-we-understand-it recreations of arms and armor.

Heck, using modern plumbing instead of wiping ourselves with dirt and leaves after doing our business in the woods makes us not 100% authentically medieval. But we don't claim to be. We prefer to take a pass on the not-fun stuff like cholera, and play by rules that are reasonably authentic but flexible enough to also be safe, healthy and fun for everyone. Even if someone of that gender or ethnic origin would probably not have had quite so much fun in the actual middle ages. Or lived as long. Or had the benefits of modern medicine and hygiene. Et cetera.

Can you even imagine Pennsic without port-a-potties? Personally, I'd as soon not.

There's actually not a lot of historical question about the arms and armor of most time periods spanning the last thousand-odd years, because we either have surviving examples or solid forensic evidence for things like the ore deposits they mined, the leather tanning processes they used, the thickness and forging techniques of armor and weapons, etc. The data exists and it is actually pretty good.

And while SCA is a fun activity, it is nothing more than a paintball session with more equipment and (apparently) chimeric meals. I'm glad that that is something enjoyed... But it does not make a member of the SCA into a medievalist.

I'll be the first to admit that our actual armor and weapons are not authentic in terms of materials. Heck, my first set of armor was made out of old carpet, and I have another set made out of pickle barrels. My plate was made of modern steel using both machines and hand tooling. We've adapted a lot of the historical data for physical safety over historical accuracy, and the marshals call it by what actually works on the field and what's safe.

One thing we do get from donning heavy armor and bashing each other about with rattan sticks is a pretty good understanding of the physics of the thing in general. I won't claim more than that, but I will say that it's certainly helped my understanding of the game mechanics that are intended to simulate them.

I don't fight dragons and bugbears, because those creatures don't exist. Actually if they did, I'd much rather wrangle them into a zoo collection than fight them, but that's beside the point. I have been in vigorous physical arguments with large carnivores who wanted to complain about their standards of veterinary care, and that's also been pretty educational.

I don't cross swords with orcs because orcs don't exist either. I have worn plate armor on a battlefield where people were doing their best to hit me very hard with fast moving heavy weapons, so I think I have a better-than-usual idea of the physical dynamics of effective vs bloody dangerous, stupid, unsafe, unworkable, fake, get-your-ass-killed female armor. That's really all, though.

None of this makes me "medieval". I do think it's reasonable to say that I have a fair idea of the physical mechanics of what female fighters who mix it up with dragons and bugbears and orcs must do. Assuming they want to avoid getting knocked down or killed in physical altercations with both creatures and armored opponents who are, on average, much bigger than they are. Which I imagine most of them do.

 

[TanithT]

You know when I said that, in your example the woman may be assaulted, but men are going to be hung, gelded, ripped to shreds, tortured? Yeah, you seem to not get that man matter. It is women matter or we all matter, never a specific point where even a corollary.

I am getting really, really tired of your telling me that I am saying things or meaning things that just don't exist.

Men and women matter, equally so. We're both human. What I am saying is that inequality is wrong, not that victimizing men is any less wrong than victimizing women.

You can PM me with the issues and I would be happy to read your articles.

I don't particularly want you to read my articles. If you think I'm making stuff up, I'll PM Morrus if he's agreeable with the issue numbers, and he can confirm that I am not, since he can also see the name on the PayPal account I used to subscribe with. Because I have absolutely no desire to share anything I've written so that you can do the same thing with my articles that you did with my list of casually read fantasy books. And with pretty much everything I've written. Not currently feeling good about sharing my personal information either.

And yes, you are literally judging a book by its cover. The mention of the Exalted book with the cameltoe sorceress? Directly off of the cover of a book on Magic in the series (Savant and Sorcerer).

Are you saying that this image honestly isn't representational of anything else in the books? That it's *just* the cover, and the rest of the books are fine and dandy? Cause, ain't so.

the bikini-fighter who relies on Dex is no different than any depiction of the monk in any 3.x or up materials:

The image you posted is pretty okay, though I'd kinda worry about falling out of a sports bra that had holes in the middle like that. It really depends on context and whether the male monks are running around in skintight skimpies also, or whether they're in loose robes.

In short, you are arguing that two individuals, who may have different classes, races, skill sets, etc. who stand near each other should look exactly the same? I'm not eating ACP to be politically correct.

No. I'm saying that if all or most of the men are wearing clothing that is fully practical and that mostly covers them, and all or most of the women are wearing clothing that is impractical and revealing, it's going to send a message.

I'm not talking about making the dex based monks look like the heavy tank fighters, or comparing a mage in her indoor laboratory to someone who is supposed to be fighting in the snow with a greatsword. Adventurers should be dressed for the adventure, and if they are depicted as being short on gear or as wearing gear that is stupid for the circumstances they are in, it sends a message about those characters. That's all.

 

[Janx]

Can't we all just get along?

 

[Kynn]

Why did I look at this thread?