Sexism and presumed sexism in RPGs

[Loonook]

I know I said I was not going to do this but I have to answer the Andre Norton comment. I knew Andre Norton we talked about this subject and yes she gave Gygax advice. They wanted an evil matriarchal society and that is what Gygax came up with.

Andre Norton believed in equality between men and woman and that both sexes should be treated with respect. She never would have said it is okay to torture men in real life any more than it is okay to torture woman in real life.

Uhhuh. And yet, the gender reversal still stands. Norton has been discussed by scholars across the board... And I covered everything I wanted to cover on the topic.

Speaking of the iconics how come both Hennet the sorcerer and Nebin the illusionist get to wear full out of clothes but Mialee the wizard has the stupid bare legs and bare belly outfit?

Hennet wears full clothing?

That's weird... Looks pretty much barechested to me. That may just be one depiction...

Guess not. Yeah, Hennet is not 'fully clothed' in any picture that I can recall other than his Epic Iconic (?)... And that's a maybe.

On Nebin... I cannot recall a gnome of either gender who isn't dressed to the hilt.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Umbran]

Folks,

Rhetorical question here: Are you actively trying to learn from other people in this discussion, or are you trying to "win". No need to publicly answer. Just be honest with yourself.

I ask, because I see a lot of folks asserting things, repeatedly, against each other, and precious little, "Hm, you have a point..." going on. Much giving, not much taking, so to speak. That's not constructive, and quickly turns into bloviation.

If your goal is to win, you won't. Sorry. Not going to happen. You're going to beat your heads against each other forever, or at least until the discussion becomes risky enough to shut down.

So, remember, don't be this person:

 

[Elf Witch]

Uhhuh. And yet, the gender reversal still stands. Norton has been discussed by scholars across the board... And I covered everything I wanted to cover on the topic.



Hennet wears full clothing?

That's weird... Looks pretty much barechested to me. That may just be one depiction...

Guess not. Yeah, Hennet is not 'fully clothed' in any picture that I can recall other than his Epic Iconic (?)... And that's a maybe.

On Nebin... I cannot recall a gnome of either gender who isn't dressed to the hilt.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

I have never seen the other picture I have no idea where it is from. But he is not nearly as unclothed as Mialee is he has full high rise pants on. He is not baring both his chest and legs. In the 3.5 picture his belly is covered it is not the same as at all. Fully clothed might have been the wrong term but he is not walking around baring as much flesh as possible. Mialee should put on some pants to go adventuring. Why waste spells on endure elements and risk nasty sunburns and exposure to to all the elements dressed like that.

And lets be a little grown up here men chests are not considered a sexual part of their body they will not get arrested for walking around without a shirt. Woman on the other hand would because breasts are considered a sexual body part which is why cleavage showing is considered sexy and some offices don't allow it and why the military does not allow it.


And as I have said over and over and over which you have chosen to ignore the issue is when you dress female characters differently from the men of the same class. Which is what was done in the 3.5 handbook with the female magic user.

You are just looking to argue and refusing to acknowledge any thing anyone says if it does not met your view.

It is refreshing to know that WOTC is looking at this issue and wants to be more inclusive in 5E. As that wonderful video Robert Sullivan pointed out silly is silly and if a man would look silly in it then so would a woman and vice versa.
I was looking at the 3.5 players handbook the one that anyone was was playing 3.5 was likely to own.

 

[Loonook]

I have never seen the other picture I have no idea where it is from. But he is not nearly as unclothed as Mialee is he has full high rise pants on. He is not baring both his chest and legs.

And as I have said over and over and over which you have chosen to ignore the issue is when you dress female characters differently from the men of the same class. Which is what was done in the 3.5 handbook with the female magic user.

Not really. Mialee is completely within line with Hennet... Both are arcane casters. And the gnome, who as I said seems pretty much in-line with his race (where I can't find a female gnome in allegedly scant dress)? Well, he has more clothes than everyone.

You are just looking to argue and refusing to acknowledge any thing anyone says if it does not met your view.

It is refreshing to know that WOTC is looking at this issue and wants to be more inclusive in 5E. As that wonderful video Robert Sullivan pointed out silly is silly and if a man would look silly in it then so would a woman and vice versa.
I was looking at the 3.5 players handbook the one that anyone was was playing 3.5 was likely to own.

And if I do not agree with you I'm just looking to argue?

You throw up these issues... Then I throw out a counterpoint, and that is somehow being antagonistic...

It is called debating an issue.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Mallus]

It is refreshing to know that WOTC is looking at this issue and wants to be more inclusive in 5E. As that wonderful video Robert Sullivan pointed out silly is silly and if a man would look silly in it then so would a woman and vice versa.

Out of curiosity, what do you make of female artists who draw, umm, impractically sexed-up heroines, or female cosplayers who choose to wear revealing/sexy-for-a-certain-definition-of costumes?

I don't really have a dog in this hunt, so to speak. If it were up to me, I'd fill RPG books with women in practical armor, women in combat-lingerie, elf boys kissing one another (because ticking off the homophobes in the audience brings me a childish delight, I'm sorry to say) and morbidly obese anthropomorphic dragons in plate armor (because I played one, and he's one of my favorite characters). Needless to say, my RPG books probably wouldn't sell very well...

But a variety of art would be nice, without too too much realism or justification of images outside of the simple pleasure they bring.

 

[Elf Witch]

Uhhuh. And yet, the gender reversal still stands. Norton has been discussed by scholars across the board... And I covered everything I wanted to cover on the topic.




Slainte,

-Loonook.

What scholars do you have any links? Andre Norton is a grandmaster of science fiction and is thought very highly in the field by not only readers but other SF writers and publishers. Her books have won awards. Children's librarians have rated a lot of her books very highly.

The majority of her books show men and woman in equal positions. There are a few exceptions like the early Witch World novels and it is only the one land that behaves like that in the series. The latter books deal with the changes that happen because of one earthman coming to the Witch World.

 

[Mallus]

What scholars do you have any links?

I'd like to know, too. I've read Norton, know her status in the SF/F community, and was completely unaware there was critical-type criticism --really, crit of any sort-- about her.

 

[Loonook]

What scholars do you have any links? Andre Norton is a grandmaster of science fiction and is thought very highly in the field by not only readers but other SF writers and publishers. Her books have won awards. Children's librarians have rated a lot of her books very highly.

The majority of her books show men and woman in equal positions. There are a few exceptions like the early Witch World novels and it is only the one land that behaves like that in the series. The latter books deal with the changes that happen because of one earthman coming to the Witch World.

As I have now been told twice in the thread, I am apparently not here to do homework for you. There is actually a great wiki that shows all scholarly works/articles on Andre Norton and Scifi authors in general... You can read through the critiques. And of course, the work itself. But again, misandry is accepted these days... And, you know, work on the Drow.

800, 900 pages tops of criticism. Treat yourselves.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Elf Witch]

Out of curiosity, what do you make of female artists who draw, umm, impractically sexed-up heroines, or female cosplayers who choose to wear revealing/sexy-for-a-certain-definition-of costumes?

I don't really have a dog in this hunt, so to speak. If it were up to me, I'd fill RPG books with women in practical armor, women in combat-lingerie, elf boys kissing one another (because ticking off the homophobes in the audience brings me a childish delight, I'm sorry to say) and morbidly obese anthropomorphic dragons in plate armor (because I played one, and he's one of my favorite characters). Needless to say, my RPG books probably wouldn't sell very well...

But a variety of art would be nice, without too too much realism or justification of images outside of the simple pleasure they bring.

I have no issue with what an artist chooses to draw. I don''t have an issue with sexed up art I own Boris and Frazeeta originals.

I have no issue with what a woman choose to do with her body . Or how she dresses at cons or if she makes a living as booth babe, stripper or Playboy bunny.

I have no issue with RPG art showing succubi dressed in a very sexual way because that is what they do.

I don't like silly the video Robert Sullivan posted is an excellent point of view.
I object to woman and woman only being drawn in a silly way. He made a point if you would not but a male character in the art drawn that way why would you draw the woman that way.

 

[Mallus]

But again, misandry is accepted these days...

What are you on about?