Shadowdancer HiPS - what is effective against it?

[Pinotage]

I have the same problem, but my guy is 19th level now...

Aluvial

I mostly ignore it, and treat it like invisibility at will, barring the restrictions implied by the Hide skill. For the most part there's bound to be a shadow around, be it a companion's shadow, a table, or some other object. For me the easiest way to handle a 12th level Shadowdancer was to write up a set of rules that the player and I were happy with, and stick to it, even if it may be slightly different from some people's interpretation of the rules. The bottom line as has been pointed out in the other thread, is that all the Shadowdancer needs is to be within 10 ft of a shadow. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. If there's a shadow, let the shadowdancer hide. If there isn't, which is highly unlikely, then the shadowdancer can't hide. In most cases it boils down to invisibility at will. I don't try and rationalise how it works, just simply apply the rules as the player and I understand them.

Pinotage

 

[Aluvial]

The power reads in the SRD as:

"Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."

So, IMHO, the shadowdancer is the one that needs the shadow in order to HiPS. Whether or not an opponent can see the shadow is irrelevant. (Those with Darkvision do not see shadows.) Therefore, Darkvision does not allow you to see a HiPS shadowdancer.

See Invisibility allows you to do the eponymous function; it does not allow you to see hidden creatures. Since the Shadowdancer is neither invisible nor ethereal, this spell does not let you see him.

True Seeing is the most awkward to interpret. The spirit of the spell wording implies that it would work. The actual words, OTOH, seem to exclude the possibility. IMC I'd house rule it to detect HiPS. YMMV.

There is only one type of hiding. There is not a second type that the Shadowdancer uses. Hiding for a shadowdancer is the same as hiding for any other type of creature.

The shadowdancer is in one of three types of square. Dark, Shadowy, or Lit. That's it. Each square in the game world has one of these three states. It is important that you note that the state of the square is relative to the person looking at it. Low-light vision effectively doubles the range of a light source for that character. Darkvision sees hidden characters (within range), unless they are behind cover, meaning a solid. True Seeing does penetrate magical effects, but does not penetrate a character who is hiding because you are still not spotting the creature.

Light is blocky. It takes the shape of the grid, just like a fireball or cone effect would.

Aluvial

 

[Aluvial]

Careful.

Does someone with low-light vision change the "shadow conditions" in the area he is in?

Think that one through carefully.

What are you implying (not about me, but the rules)? Someone with low-light vision does not change the conditions of the light source, merely what he can see. The light source is doubled for that character.

Essentially, if a character with Low-Light looks into a square that is normally shadow, he can see it as if it is brightly lit. IF a character is hiding in that square, thinking it is shadow, the creature with Low-Light might be able to view him as if he were brightly lit. In the case of the shadowdancer vs. character with Low-Light, the shadowdancer must be in a square that is within 10' of what is considered shadow to the character with Low-Light vision.

This is all a tricky proposition to run, but once you have it clear, it makes perfect sense. Take the abstraction of shadow out of the game and make any given square one of three conditions, Dark, Shadow, or Lit (again, relative to the viewer).

Aluvial

 

[Nail]

There is only one type of hiding. There is not a second type that the Shadowdancer uses. Hiding for a shadowdancer is the same as hiding for any other type of creature.

Sure, except for all of the ways it's different.

The shadowdancer is in one of three types of square. Dark, Shadowy, or Lit. That's it.

So, on a bright sunny day, some of the area is "shadowy"? You are aware, I hope, what the combat consequences for fighting in shadowy illumination are.

In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.

To the point: HiPS works with a shadow. It does not require shadowy illumination.

 

[Hosweay]

A square is in one of the three states regardless of whether or not anyone is observing it. Lowlight or darkvision are allowed to treat the squares AS IF they are lit. That does not make them lit. The shadow exists. The shadowdancer is near it. They get to make a hide check. The observer gets to make a spot check. The higher check wins.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

A square is in one of the three states regardless of whether or not anyone is observing it. Lowlight or darkvision are allowed to treat the squares AS IF they are lit. That does not make them lit. The shadow exists. The shadowdancer is near it. They get to make a hide check. The observer gets to make a spot check. The higher check wins.

That's very humanocentric of you.

More properly (going by the ratio of low-light vision to "human standard" vision in the D&D world), some squares are lit, but human vision treats the squares AS IF they are shadowy. That does not make them shadowy. The light exists.

 

[Nail]

...but human vision treats the squares AS IF they are shadowy. That does not make them shadowy. The light exists.

...but if no one sees it, how can you be sure?

At any rate, there's no need to be metaphysical. If there are shadows within 10', the shadow dancer can hide. What kind of vision another has doesn't change the shadow's existance. .....Or does it? What if you close your eyes?

 

[Nail]

This is all a tricky proposition to run, but once you have it clear, it makes perfect sense.

Unless you close your eyes.

You can't HiPS if you are in darkness, outside of the range (lit or shadowy) of a light source. However, according to your interpretation, if I bring along an elf, .......viola! HiPS is possible.

 

[Hosweay]

Man, it would be awful to be an elf. You'd be hot all the time. A bunch of elves walking around wishing that shadows existed for them. We could get into some wondering whether or not observation needs to take place. Cat in an air tight box paradox and all. If a light source exists and an object is there to block the light source, then does it cast a shadow? If in your universe/multiverse the answer is yes, then it is in that state regardless of how the observer must treat that area. If the answer is no, then you could not hide at all without benefit of cover and the ability is useless in your world.

 

[Gaiden]

Darkvision Camo

Hmmmmm