Shadowdancer's Hide in plain Sight

[Darkness]

Yes, of course.

Maybe I've drunken too much lately then 'cause I can't quite follow you here.

Can you show the quote in the SRD? My PHB says: "Typically, concelament is provided by fog, smoke, a shadowy area, darkness, tall grass, foliage, or magical effects that make it difficult to pinpoint a target's location."

Are you saying another person's shadow makes a "shadowy area?" So an orc could use another orc's shadow as concealment?

As another poster mentioned above, the PHB also says: "Concealment and Hide checks: You can use concealment to make a Hide check."

To continue the example, an orc could Hide in another orc's shadow?

 

[Thanee]

I'm not going back to check but I'll take your word for it. Sorry that I misunderstood you.

It's the 2nd post of the thread.

Extremely important are two lines... last line in the 1st post, 2nd line in the 2nd post (in addition to what I'm refering here, which is the rest of the 2nd post, most importantly the 3rd paragraph there, which hopefully should clear up what I mean with option c)).

And I do not think, there is anything in the RAW, which contradicts what I have written there... while it is certainly not the only way to interprete that (UG's and Scion's interpretation, which is very literal, is absolutely valid (tho, it's hard to find some flavor, which actually explains why it works that way, but they do not seem to care ), and I never said they are wrong... I just object to their claim, that their interpretation is the only possible one... my claim is, that the rules are not sufficient to cover that specific case (which is obviously a contradiction to the claim, that there is only one interpretation), and I have yet to see someone disprove that).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Are you saying another person's shadow makes a "shadowy area?"

Yes, of course. It's an area, and it is shadowy, thus it is a shadowy area.

So an orc could use another orc's shadow as concealment?

You are an orc?

Well... what I meant is - and I certainly was not very clear there, sorry for that - that the shadow can provide concealment.

To continue the example, an orc could Hide in another orc's shadow?

No, normally not.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darkness]

It's completely unrelated. The ability combines two effects, which are unrelated.

Normally (without the 'some like it hot' ability), fire does not grant ability bonuses. Unrelated.
Normally (without the HiPS ability), shadow allows to hide. Related.

Very well.

Let's combine the examples to highlight where we're disagree. If a hypothetical "firedancer" prestige class had a (Su) ability with the following description:


A firedancer can use Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of fire, a firedancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in a fire emanating from herself.


Would you say true seeing pierces this ability?

 

[Thanee]

Luckily, noone would think of such a silly ability, unless - of course - they meant the firedancer to manipulate the shadows thrown by the dancing fire.

But to answer your actual question... yes, I would let True Seeing trump that.

(Because, like HiPS, it is a magical ability, which provides you with the means to Hide (i.e. provides you with "Concealment", so you can use the Hide skill), and True Seeing removes those (in relation to oneself), therefore the hiding has no effect on the person with True Seeing.)

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darkness]

Right, I'm not an orc, but my father is probably a half-troll. Or at least he has regeneration and looks like a troll, except smaller and less green.

Well... what I meant is - and I certainly was not very clear there, sorry for that - that the shadow can provide concealment.

...

No, normally not.

And that's why I dismissed the other poster's point about concealment, except I could have phrased it more precisely: A person's (and objects', generally) shadow doesn't, by itself, fulfill the concealment requirement mandated by the Hide skill. A shadowdancer, however, can use the close proximity of such a shadow to Hide, thus is clearly not bound by this requirement.

 

[Thanee]

And that's why I dismissed the other poster's point about concealment, ...

And I must say, that you simply did not understand what he meant.

Or maybe you did, and I did not... in that case, I agree with you, that that shadow is not directly used for concealment.

...except I could have phrased it more precisely: A person's (and objects', generally) shadow doesn't, by itself, fulfill the concealment requirement mandated by the Hide skill. A shadowdancer, however, can use the close proximity of such a shadow to Hide, thus is clearly not bound by this requirement.

Of course not, the shadowdancer is not hiding inside that shadow!

The shadowdancer uses the connection to the shadow (somehow) to magically create something (immaterial), which allows him to hide where he stands. Which is, really, the only halfway logical explanation to HiPS I can think of.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darkness]

Luckily, noone would think of such a silly ability

I think I've seen worse concepts in WotC prestige classes, so I wouldn't bet on it.

But to answer your actual question... yes, I would let True Seeing trump that.

Indeed you would. But not if it was an (Ex) ability ("chameleon when heated"), right?

 

[Thanee]

Right, in that case, I would probably ban the ability (unless it made any sense), or house rule it to (Su).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darkness]

And I must say, that you simply did not understand what he meant.

Or maybe you did, and I did not... in that case, I agree with you, that that shadow is not directly used for concealment.

To be on the safe side, I'll just try again in more detail.

Quote:
As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
The first sentence gives a restriction to the above ability; there must be a shadow of some sort within 10' of the Shadowdancer. The only plausible reason for this is that the shadow must somehow be used for concealment since the SRD quotes, "You need cover or concealment to attempt a Hide check". The second part of that restriction further limits that the Shadowdancer cannot hide in her own shadow. This second part also directly implies that the Shadowdancer has to somehow use this other shadow that is within 10' to hide within and thereby gain enough concealment to make a Hide check.

Now, it has already been established that True Seeing penetrates darkness and magical darkness (and thus shadows, which fall somewhere between visible light and darkness by the very definition of their existence).

First, a shadowdancer can use her HiPS ability even with shadows that cannot fulfill the concealment requirement for the Hide skill. So if she's using such a shadow, this shadow cannot be "somehow used for concealment" because it does not provide the necessary concealment in any case. So the shadowdancer must instead do something less direct with the shadow, which may or be not related to the concealing power of darkness. Going by the RAW, saying (for example) her power of hiding is fueled by the mere proximity of shadows makes much more sense than saying she "somehow uses this other shadow ... to hide within."

Second, she isn't actually in the shadow so the ability to penetrate the shadow is not helpful. Unless you're going to argue darkvision would also trump HiPS (unless magical darkness is used, which darkvision is useless against).