Shadowdark looks so good!

[Yora]

I'm actually intrigued by looking at the first pages of the rules.

 

[Autumnal]

For me, a big function of the Cursed Scroll classs is to encourage me away from thinking of game worlds in uniform terms. The big four could show up anywhere, but maybe one or more of them doesn’t natively exist in a region, and the local population can include all sorts of independent types that fit specific circumstances and themes - social and spiritual conditions as well as physical ones.

I like that a LOT. A lot a lot a lot. The simplicity of class design hands me a degree of freedom I don’t feel with more complex systems. Reskinning, yes, I’m comfortable making that paladin into a great penguin protector of the rookeries and whatever. But my inner 13-year-old is bouncing in our chair at the thought of making that guardian from the ground up, specifically for that place and time.

Among other things, to me that feels very much more like many of my long-time inspirations in pulp and other fantasy.

 

[SPECTRE666]

I backed SD on the last day of the KS. I'm glad that I did. I absolutely love it. I like the "Risk and Resource Management" of it. Now I want to find a game, and roll up a Dwarven Fighter and explore some dungeons.

 

[Bill Zebub]

and roll up a Dwarven Fighter and explore some dungeons.

Might want to roll first and choose class later!

/evilgrin

 

[Mannahnin]

Might want to roll first and choose class later!

/evilgrin

Since Shadowdark uses 3d6 in order it's an applicable place to use one of my favorite B/X character gen house rules. "Flipping" the set.

While of course most characters rolled that way will be pretty average, with one or two highish and lowish stats, we all know that some percentage of characters get lucky and have overall high scores, and some unlucky and roll poorly. Moldvay classically left this open for the player to ask their DM for a re-roll if their character seemed hopelessly below average. I did this in my most recent campaign, but found it a little bit of a pain- one of my players need three or four re-rolls because his first few sets were so terrible. And there's always a bit of subjectivity here- how bad is bad enough to merit a re-roll?

The solution Jack Daniel here on ENWorld gave me, which I've adopted though it raises the average a little, is that rather than having players ask permission to re-roll a "hopeless character" with a poor set of ability scores, I just have them roll one set, but they may choose to flip it- subtract every score, in order, from 21. This turns every high value low and vice-versa. It means every overall below-average set can be an overall above-average set. But it also gives a little choice- if you really want to play a Fighter, just pick the one with the higher Strength, say.

Edit: I see that SD has an optional rule that you can re-roll if you don't have at least one stat of 14 or better. That's pretty solid too, but I like the fact that flipping never requires any re-rolls.

 

[Yora]

3d6 in order makes a lot more sense when only a 3 gives a -3 and only an 18 a +3 modifier, and the modifiers don't increase linear.
Using the d20 system ability modifiers with 3d6 in order seems rather extreme.

In B/X and OD&D, attribute scores don't really have much of an impact on character's class abilities, so rolling them at random wasn't much of a restriction.

This approach in Shadowdark seems much harsher than in any edition of D&D.

 

[JohnF]

3d6 in order makes a lot more sense when only a 3 gives a -3 and only an 18 a +3 modifier, and the modifiers don't increase linear.
Using the d20 system ability modifiers with 3d6 in order seems rather extreme.

In B/X and OD&D, attribute scores don't really have much of an impact on character's class abilities, so rolling them at random wasn't much of a restriction.

This approach in Shadowdark seems much harsher than in any edition of D&D.

To quote the rule book, “Fights are fast and unfair. Monsters are insidious.”

And killing monsters doesn’t earn you XP.

Shadowdark games play out differently than combat-centric D&D games. Character creation feeds into that difference.

 

[DarkCrisis]

To quote the rule book, “Fights are fast and unfair. Monsters are insidious.”

And killing monsters doesn’t earn you XP.

Shadowdark games play out differently than combat-centric D&D games. Character creation feeds into that difference.

SD seems to take old school D&D to heart with "Don't fight if you don't have to." Then doubles down on that with "Monsters don't grant XP".

I mean yeah, combat is going to happen. Probably more often than not, but it gives the players the idea that maybe some back-asswards plan to bypass the Kobold Check Point worth a shot instead of just rushing in.

"We try to disguise ourselves as slaves and walk past them."
"Sounds good to me, describe your disguises then make a group CHA check."
....
"You sneak by the Kobold check point, but that leaves your rear open to attack if things get loud... proceeding on deeper into the caverns..."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Second one is "Red Sands" and has:

• "Desert Rider"
• "Pit Fighter"
• "Ras Godai" (assassins with mystical powers)

Pit Fighter is a very fun light fighter, with a ton of ways to bounce back up when they get dropped, sometimes with comic results. It's not a TPK if the Pit Fighter is going to come back up another three times before they're really dead!

I would be careful about introducing a Ras Godai to a non-Red Sands game. Just from eyeballing it, it looks a lot more powerful than the other classes.

 

[Mannahnin]

3d6 in order makes a lot more sense when only a 3 gives a -3 and only an 18 a +3 modifier, and the modifiers don't increase linear.
Using the d20 system ability modifiers with 3d6 in order seems rather extreme.

In B/X and OD&D, attribute scores don't really have much of an impact on character's class abilities, so rolling them at random wasn't much of a restriction.

This approach in Shadowdark seems much harsher than in any edition of D&D.

Shadowdark is following the example of 5 Torches Deep in this.

Both games also build some ability increases (small ones at specific levels in 5TD, likely but random Talent rolls in Shadowdark) into the character progression.

 

[Autumnal]

In practice I am just about certain to use some kind of array for stats. But then I wanted to do that in 1997, too. That’s my old school, baby.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Should I go with a game of Shadowdark, I think I'd still keep 4d6 drop lowest but in order.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Should I go with a game of Shadowdark, I think I'd still keep 4d6 drop lowest but in order.

Honestly, as lethal as the game is, even "4d6 and drop one, arrange into the order you like" isn't going to save everyone.

 

[SPECTRE666]

Might want to roll first and choose class later!

/evilgrin

A Dwarven Fighter with say an 8 strength, would still have 10 plus con mod(if any) to gear slots, and with grit I would have ADV on some strength checks!

Stout as a Dwarf with +2 hp at 1st level, and roll hp with ADV.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Since Shadowdark uses 3d6 in order it's an applicable place to use one of my favorite B/X character gen house rules. "Flipping" the set.

While of course most characters rolled that way will be pretty average, with one or two highish and lowish stats, we all know that some percentage of characters get lucky and have overall high scores, and some unlucky and roll poorly. Moldvay classically left this open for the player to ask their DM for a re-roll if their character seemed hopelessly below average. I did this in my most recent campaign, but found it a little bit of a pain- one of my players need three or four re-rolls because his first few sets were so terrible. And there's always a bit of subjectivity here- how bad is bad enough to merit a re-roll?

The solution Jack Daniel here on ENWorld gave me, which I've adopted though it raises the average a little, is that rather than having players ask permission to re-roll a "hopeless character" with a poor set of ability scores, I just have them roll one set, but they may choose to flip it- subtract every score, in order, from 21. This turns every high value low and vice-versa. It means every overall below-average set can be an overall above-average set. But it also gives a little choice- if you really want to play a Fighter, just pick the one with the higher Strength, say.

Edit: I see that SD has an optional rule that you can re-roll if you don't have at least one stat of 14 or better. That's pretty solid too, but I like the fact that flipping never requires any re-rolls.

Yeah the "Invert" method is actively discussed on the Shadowdark Discord. I haven't tried it but I think it's a good option for tables that want a bit more resilience to chargen.

 

[Bill Zebub]

To quote the rule book, “Fights are fast and unfair. Monsters are insidious.”

And killing monsters doesn’t earn you XP.

Shadowdark games play out differently than combat-centric D&D games. Character creation feeds into that difference.

In a recent 5e game, we were being chased by two different enemies, and we maneuvered them into fighting each other.

Instead of running away, we said, "We should probably step in and finish them off, so we get the XP."

So, uh, yeah, I'm loving Shadowdark.

 

[kapars]

My huge hesitation, as always with OSR systems, is the PC's fragility at low-ish level.

My players are not expert gamers nor people with any knowledge of pre-2014 D&D, so notions of Skilled Play, Combat as War and such things are not something they understand. But they do love the simplicity of those systems.

I have a OSR-ish 5e version as a work-in-(not)-progress somewhere on my PC, I should really go back to it and try to make something out of it.

Don’t buy into this combat as war stuff too much. I’m playing OSE with my kids and they’ve taken on combat and survived. They did roll better than some I’ve seen, no 1hp characters. Combat is not guaranteed death. A 1hp character in melee is a different story. I think what helps them is they have a healthy fear of everything and a lot of the role playing and fun of the game is risk mitigation. Well that and shopping with the generous loot you tend to get.

I’ve had one Shadowdark character die but this was an experienced player that was happy to see the character go and had another ready by the next room where they were found as a prisoner.

 

[Jahydin]

This approach in Shadowdark seems much harsher than in any edition of D&D.

Keep in mind that raising the primary stat and the class's primary bonus is possible every time the PC levels.

Also, the bonuses from attributes are used slightly differently to minimize impact. For instance, Str doesn't add to damage and Con only adds to hp once.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Keep in mind that raising the primary stat and the class's primary bonus is possible every time the PC levels.

Also, the bonuses from attributes are used slightly differently to minimize impact. For instance, Str doesn't add to damage and Con only adds to hp once.

All that, and also Shadowdark encourages less rolling and more narrative adjudication. Yes, you succeed in that task just because you are a Fighter (or whatever).

 

[Nightfly]

Should I go with a game of Shadowdark, I think I'd still keep 4d6 drop lowest but in order.

PFFFFT. Grow a pair of ovaries and play the game like a real woman!