She is a Black Shadow Dragon, and uses Major Image to project the form of a drow when interacting with the PCs.
D&D 5E Shapeshifting dragons - only metallic?
- Thread starter CapnZapp
- Start date
She is a Black Shadow Dragon, and uses Major Image to project the form of a drow when interacting with the PCs.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
The annoying thing about shapechanging in 5e is that if you don't have a special ability, you need a 9th-level spell just to take on a humanoid form. 4th-level: polymorph into a beast. 9th-level: polymorph into pretty much anything. Nothing in between. It's something that really irritates me. There needs to be some spell in the middle that opens up the options a bit, for dragons and everyone else.
CapnZapp
Legend
Thank you. The way you discuss the matter is just the way I had hoped!
On one hand, of course I can "do whatever I want, I'm the DM". But I don't want to do so without first finding out more about the "behind the scenes" reasoning of the D&D creators.
On the other hand, I will absolutely do it, if the alternative is a magic ring (or somesuch). First off, such an item would be incredibly powerful in the hands of the player characters, and I have enough experience to know better than to equip a NPC with something that "can't" fall into the grubby hands of the heroes...
But more importantly, I absolutely detest the grand tradition of old D&D editions to hand out "frak you" items. Hats of non-detection is perhaps the most egregious example (why first give PCs "detect evil" and then make the BBEG immune to that ability?)
Now, I know I'm kicking in open doors here. 5E has most wisely done away with such crap. But that is precisely why I will definitely not use the option to give my NPC a wand of polymorph or somesuch.
(That the item is either too weak and restricted to work for story purposes; such as the one hour and concentration limits on the DMG wand, or that it is too strong to ever fall into the PCs hands is only a secondary consideration.)
---
So where do we stand?
It does seem each and every "case" discussed use a work-around. Previous editions simply gave powerful items. The current edition tries a little harder, using illusions and what not.
It starts to look like my options are limited. Perhaps the best solution is to invent a story reason for "my" blue dragon to be special?
I guess I could say she's a brass dragon with a "special" kind of very selfish kind of chaotic good alignment. But since the level range dictates a young dragon that isn't too helpful - even the dragons that DO get "Change Shape" only gets it at more mature stages (well into the double digits Challenge Ratings).
A curse perhaps? Nah - an inquisitive and intellectual dragon would see that more as a boon than a bane.
A mixed parentage then? Have there ever been "neutral" dragons? Have there ever been "unheard of" offspring between a metallic and a chromatic?
Feel free to continue bringing up previous edition examples. (We all agree this edition will provide more options as time goes by, so I am fully intent on not limiting myself to only what's in the MM)
On one hand, of course I can "do whatever I want, I'm the DM". But I don't want to do so without first finding out more about the "behind the scenes" reasoning of the D&D creators.
On the other hand, I will absolutely do it, if the alternative is a magic ring (or somesuch). First off, such an item would be incredibly powerful in the hands of the player characters, and I have enough experience to know better than to equip a NPC with something that "can't" fall into the grubby hands of the heroes...
But more importantly, I absolutely detest the grand tradition of old D&D editions to hand out "frak you" items. Hats of non-detection is perhaps the most egregious example (why first give PCs "detect evil" and then make the BBEG immune to that ability?)
Now, I know I'm kicking in open doors here. 5E has most wisely done away with such crap. But that is precisely why I will definitely not use the option to give my NPC a wand of polymorph or somesuch.
(That the item is either too weak and restricted to work for story purposes; such as the one hour and concentration limits on the DMG wand, or that it is too strong to ever fall into the PCs hands is only a secondary consideration.)
---
So where do we stand?
It does seem each and every "case" discussed use a work-around. Previous editions simply gave powerful items. The current edition tries a little harder, using illusions and what not.
It starts to look like my options are limited. Perhaps the best solution is to invent a story reason for "my" blue dragon to be special?
I guess I could say she's a brass dragon with a "special" kind of very selfish kind of chaotic good alignment. But since the level range dictates a young dragon that isn't too helpful - even the dragons that DO get "Change Shape" only gets it at more mature stages (well into the double digits Challenge Ratings).
A curse perhaps? Nah - an inquisitive and intellectual dragon would see that more as a boon than a bane.
A mixed parentage then? Have there ever been "neutral" dragons? Have there ever been "unheard of" offspring between a metallic and a chromatic?
Feel free to continue bringing up previous edition examples. (We all agree this edition will provide more options as time goes by, so I am fully intent on not limiting myself to only what's in the MM)
CapnZapp
Legend
Well, perhaps, but remember, spells are designed with player characters in mind (and rightly so*).
First off: thank you for reminding me Polymorph isn't good enough to turn into a humanoid in this edition.
Then: there are bigger beefs to burn (does anyone say that?) than providing you with "story capabilities" like the one we're discussing here.
*) NPCs can always gain special abilities. Not requiring NPCs to play by the PC's rules is perhaps the most fundamental improvement of 5E compared to (mainly) 3E, in my opinion.
The Polymorph/Shapechange spells must first and foremost fix all the playability and balances issues of old editions. We all know what this entails, with the various fixes and limitations that got quite out of hand.
Restricting Polymorph to beasts beautifully fixes most of the issues, since it stops you from overshadowing the druid, stops turning the Monsters Manual into the Sears Catalog Of Overpowered Forms, and still allows "baleful" polymorph attacks.
Restricting Shapechange... is simply not needed when it's a level 9 spell. We all know all rules go out the window once you reach level 17!
What you ask for is simply something I fully understand and accept is not part of the "basic" rules. Any "in between" spell at perhaps spell level 6 or 7 will simply have to be so complex, for relatively little gain, that not having it in the PHB is justified in my opinion...
Zapp
PS. Besides, anything requiring Concentration is a no-good solution for my purposes (if a shapechanger couldn't blend in and join the allies in combat without running a significant risk of losing its assumed form each time it takes even a single point of damage, it simply cannot do so)
The one hour duration is a less critical limitation, assuming the NPC gets unlimited castings of the effect. Obviously getting a single level nine slot for Shapechange is not nearly enough for this purpose; what I need is (if we limit ourselves to 5E mechanics currently existing today) nothing short of the Change Shape ability currently given to only a small selection of very do-goody (and therefore uninteresting) critters.
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Ath'kethin
Elder Thing
I really don't understand why you feel granting all dragons (maybe restrict by age category?), or maybe just arbitrarily some dragons, the ability to shape change is such a problem. It seems to me no different from the sidebar in the MM about dragon spellcasters; you can just decide that some have can do it and there you go. No crossbreeding, no contrived Rube Goldberg justifications, it just is. Done.
CapnZapp
Legend
I guess twas inevitable this question would pop sooner or later...
Well, if I ask you to try?
I really don't have any other answer than it would feel better if I can work WITH the rules rather than AROUND them. Either you can accept and understand such a desire or you can't, I guess. Think of it like different tastes.
(Actually I do have another answer. Not sure I like it myself though. At least one of my players is an old DM himself, and pretty much a walking D&D encyclopedia. If I can avoid him asking "but I thought chromatic dragons couldn't shapeshift?" so much the better.
I did say I didn't like this answer and I don't. This player is enough of a DM himself to accept if I told him "because the story says so". And besides, I am perfectly aware I don't need to carry decades of old D&D lore on my back when I DM, and that in fact 5E encourages me not to)
Mecheon
Sacabambaspis
In terms of the Chromatics, I've always held it that Blues at the least should be able to shapeshift. Maybe greens as well if you want something else, but its always seemed a bit... Eh for the others. Reds are too busy being egotists destroying everything, blacks are too busy being sullen and living in swamps, and whites, well, whites have a big list of issues they have just living day to day. Shapeshifting is the last thing they need to worry about.
Blue dragons are the sorcerers all the same, so I'd almost say one of them obtained something that enabled it. A piece of forgotten magic, which wouldn't be too hard given blues are all about the desert. Deserts full of ancient ruins from the dawn of time, or at least the dawn of dragons, and why those Metallics always had the ability they most likely did not fairly earn...
Outside of the normal Metallics, I did love the fact that Mercury dragons could shapeshift into mercury circa 4E
Blue dragons are the sorcerers all the same, so I'd almost say one of them obtained something that enabled it. A piece of forgotten magic, which wouldn't be too hard given blues are all about the desert. Deserts full of ancient ruins from the dawn of time, or at least the dawn of dragons, and why those Metallics always had the ability they most likely did not fairly earn...
Outside of the normal Metallics, I did love the fact that Mercury dragons could shapeshift into mercury circa 4E
CapnZapp
Legend
I would love if you (or anyone else) could find such a piece of forgotten D&D trivia, perhaps from the ancient ruins from the dawn of time that is Dungeon Magazine or AD&D supplements
It would probably surprise me more if quality control is such that every author for every edition has adhered to the "free shapeshifting only for good guys" dogma...
Mecheon
Sacabambaspis
I would love if you (or anyone else) could find such a piece of forgotten D&D trivia, perhaps from the ancient ruins from the dawn of time that is Dungeon Magazine or AD&D supplements
It would probably surprise me more if quality control is such that every author for every edition has adhered to the "free shapeshifting only for good guys" dogma...
Man, you're talking to me. I just make this stuff up and proclaim its canon, using some shaky examples from Elder Scrolls lore to justify anything. C0da makes it canon, after all.
My gut tells me if we want to go canon, the easiest way's actually just 4E's Draconomicon: It does just state that some crossbreeds between types of dragons can look identical to one parent, but have the abilities of the other. But that's a bit on the eh side in my opinion, along with requiring a blue to shack up with a gold, silver, steel or mercury dragon
Going the not-so-canon approach, I'd instead pick up on the lack of consistency around where dragons actually came from and they've found some artifact from back when Tiamat and Bahamut walked the world. The bones or blood of Io itself may even be the type of thing that could be used
If I recall correctly there is a half-dragon template in the MM to use for when a shapeshifted dragon mates with a non-dragon. I think it includes chromatic dragons. Also, the green dragon entry (or something on those pages) implies at least one of them having such an ability. Probably the one already mentioned in this thread.
