hawkeyefan
Legend
That's right, thanks. Shortly after posting, I realized that it was likely illusions due to the whole shadow thing.
[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] How about a dragon of mixed brass/blue heritage?
D&D 5E Shapeshifting dragons - only metallic?
- Thread starter CapnZapp
- Start date
That's right, thanks. Shortly after posting, I realized that it was likely illusions due to the whole shadow thing.
[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] How about a dragon of mixed brass/blue heritage?
Ath-kethin
Elder Thing
This is an interesting point. The example used in the Half-Dragon entry is a half-red, even though the red dragon entry does not list Change Shape as one if its abilities.
Also interestingly, in 5th edition all metallic dragons have the shapechanging ability, not just bronze, gold, and silvers.
Ath-kethin
Elder Thing
The 4th edition Draconomicon 2 includes the following piece on draconic shapechanging (on page 219):
"Mercury and steel dragons are natural shapechangers, but other metallic dragons, particularly golds and silvers, can also learn to change shape. Even a few chromatics have this ability.(emphasis mine).
Adding change shape to a dragon does not dramatically increase the dragon's power, but shapechanging can serve your story. If you want to have a shapechanging dragon, you need not replace another power with it. If you want the characters to have a chance of being able to discern the dragon's true nature, you can limit the ability or have the dragon retain a hint of its draconic appearance."
How much more canon do you need?
"Mercury and steel dragons are natural shapechangers, but other metallic dragons, particularly golds and silvers, can also learn to change shape. Even a few chromatics have this ability.(emphasis mine).
Adding change shape to a dragon does not dramatically increase the dragon's power, but shapechanging can serve your story. If you want to have a shapechanging dragon, you need not replace another power with it. If you want the characters to have a chance of being able to discern the dragon's true nature, you can limit the ability or have the dragon retain a hint of its draconic appearance."
How much more canon do you need?
CapnZapp
Legend
Neither does the Half-Dragon. I would say this is because the template neither adds nor subtracts an ability such as "Change Shape".
Of course, you might be thinking of the fluff entry, starting by saying "When a dragon in polymorphed form mates with another creature, the union sometimes produces halfdragon offspring", and use that to justify the entry. However, since the text continues "A creature might also transform into a half-dragon [for other reasons]" that can hardly be used as conclusive evidence.
In fact, since the halfdragon is based on the non-draconic half and not the dragon half, it would suggest no half-dragons get shapeshifting abilities. And this is precisely what the rules would lead to, if applied to a Gold Dragon - a human half gold dragon only gains senses, resistances and a (pitiful) breath attack.
But thanks for the analysis!
CapnZapp
Legend
Thank you.
I gather this what Illithidbix was referring to.
Ideally?
An example of a chromatic "natural shapechanger" from an official TSR/WotC module, campaign book or article (Perhaps these draconomicons contain such an exceptional creature?)
What is the green dragon's name? (As mentioned upthread by Illithidbix)
Again thanks!
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Ath-kethin
Elder Thing
Half-dragons have never had a change shape ability. I was referring to the fact that somehow a red dragon knocked up a human and made a half-red.
Ath-kethin
Elder Thing
You're moving the goalposts. A precedent/formally published rule has been located. That's all you asked for.
Given that Dragon Magazine stuff was written almost entirely by amateurs, I don't see why such an item would be more binding or hold more value than the 4e Draconomicon.
The green dragon that changed shape was Cyan Bloodbane, who disguised himself as a Silvanesti elf and advisor to their ruler. Of course, tormenting the ruler of Silvanesti was basically Cyan Bloodbane's whole schtick.
And keep in mind that Bloodbane was just a regular green dragon, not even a special one or dragon overlord. Keep in mind also that this happened in a novel, not a game supplement. And even there, he used a magic amulet to change shape.
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CapnZapp
Legend
Ath-kethin
Elder Thing
Honestly., I'm as surprised as you are how closely D&D books and materials have adhered to the "only bronze, silver, and gold dragons can naturally polymorph" paradigm. It seems a really odd thing to hold as a sacred cow for so long.
Even in 5e, where they have opened up the ability to all metallics, the chromatics get left out for some reason. I don't really understand why, especially since, as the 4e book pointed out, adding a shapechanging ability toa dragon doesn't really increase its power much and can make for a great story.
Even in 5e, where they have opened up the ability to all metallics, the chromatics get left out for some reason. I don't really understand why, especially since, as the 4e book pointed out, adding a shapechanging ability toa dragon doesn't really increase its power much and can make for a great story.
ProgBard
First Post
Okay, here's a canonical Realmslore example: Anwir Duprestiskava, longtime Supreme Potentate of Var the Golden, is an ancient shapeshifted blue.
(Okay, the text doesn't say "shapeshifted," but it does say "playing at being human," and that almost no one realizes what he really is, even though he's been on the throne for over two centuries, because I guess they take a lot of weirdness for granted in the Shining Lands.)
My source is the 3e The Shining South sourcebook, but I think there might be an offhand mention in the 3e FRCS as well.
(Okay, the text doesn't say "shapeshifted," but it does say "playing at being human," and that almost no one realizes what he really is, even though he's been on the throne for over two centuries, because I guess they take a lot of weirdness for granted in the Shining Lands.)
My source is the 3e The Shining South sourcebook, but I think there might be an offhand mention in the 3e FRCS as well.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
In 3e it would be easy to pull off simply by making a feat chain (because you'd need a chain of 2 or 3 to be able to purchase that sort of ability in 3e) for draconic shapechanging. Use the 3e Draconomicon feats as examples of the kinds of stuff dragon-enhancing feats can do (conclusion: a lot), and voila! enough information to feel like you are at least in line with published material, even if expanding it.
5e doesn't give monsters feats, so it's harder for me to feel comfortable doing (as a guy who likes to stay canon as much as possible). I would give a dragon class levels, however. And if you allow what they gain from that to affect their spellcasting from the sidebar (which you might not), if you can ramp their CR up to 27 somehow, they can get 9th-level spells. Of course, you may not be interesting in ramping CR that high.
Anyway, I know that's a little off-topic, since you are looking more for precedent than "how can I pull this off in 5e by the book?" but I thought I'd share some of the things that occurred to me months ago when I was considering this sort of thing.
5e doesn't give monsters feats, so it's harder for me to feel comfortable doing (as a guy who likes to stay canon as much as possible). I would give a dragon class levels, however. And if you allow what they gain from that to affect their spellcasting from the sidebar (which you might not), if you can ramp their CR up to 27 somehow, they can get 9th-level spells. Of course, you may not be interesting in ramping CR that high.
Anyway, I know that's a little off-topic, since you are looking more for precedent than "how can I pull this off in 5e by the book?" but I thought I'd share some of the things that occurred to me months ago when I was considering this sort of thing.
CapnZapp
Legend
Verily.
Especially since this "rule" doesn't seem to be advertised anywhere. It would be one thing if "everybody knew this" or if it was specifically called out in the Monster Manual ("of course, the gods took the ability to shapeshift away from the chromatics in the year -1234 when Tiamat abused the ability to steal candy disguised as a small child")
Most "rules" of D&D are rather prominently displayed, and then broken anyway. What's so sacred about this one that the unwritten compact to never violate it apparently remains unbroken after three decades of splatbooks?
It is. I really appreciate the effort, and want to thank you very much for going the extra mile.
Sadly, there is no reason Anwir needs to actually appear as a human, since he's described as a very reclusive and very powerful ruler. Exactly the kind of monarch that doesn't do public appearances and isn't questioned for it.
Besides, the text specifically says his closest advisors know the truth. Sure he could have told them, but it's equally likely he had to let them know.
None of this is meant to diminish your research. It just means we have yet another example that appears promising but when you look closer you realize it has been carefully worded to not contravene an unwritten assumption "no evil free shapeshifting"...
You would think so, but this thread suggests otherwise.
I would love if you could be more specific on those novels, though.
Thank for this pointer.
Looking through the 3E Draconomicon from 2003, I can't find any such feats. But what a search found was Iyriddelmirev, a black dragon described as such: "she is found in the city above, polymorphed into the form of a black-skinned human woman."
She gets this ability from being a 9th-level sorcerer, so it's a spell, not an innate ability. (Of course, we have already concluded the level 4 spell Polymorph doesn't cut it in 5th edition and not only because it's restricted in creature types)
In this book, the ability I would like to see the most (on a chromatic) is "Alternate Form". This is basically the Polymorph spell (which in this edition is enough for humanoid shapes).
dave2008
Legend
It was the black dragon codex: http://www.amazon.com/Black-Dragon-Codex-The-Codices/dp/0786949724
I can't remember it exactly, but the young black dragon spends most of the novel as a humanoid.
CapnZapp
Legend
Based on Goodread reviews, his mother casts a spell to save him, transforming him into a human. He cannot control his form himself.
Since it's a novel and not a rpg accessory, I believe the question "what spell does that" is unfair to ask. I will mention it does take place in an official D&D campaign world (Dragonlance).
Thank you.
Since it's a novel and not a rpg accessory, I believe the question "what spell does that" is unfair to ask. I will mention it does take place in an official D&D campaign world (Dragonlance).
Thank you.
A
amerigoV
Guest
Given that every other bad guy in 3e was 1/2 dragon, I think we can safely presume the evil dragons can shape change. They put Kirk to shame.
The chromatic dragons probably just have a good PR guy to blame it on the metallics.
The chromatic dragons probably just have a good PR guy to blame it on the metallics.
dave2008
Legend
Yes, but it was explained in the book that she had to cast the spell on him, because he wasn't old enough to shapechange (like she was), if I remember correctly.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
It's worth pointing out that there are plenty of evil creatures that have the ability to shapeshift into human forms--just not dragons.
I really don't want to be the one to bring this up, but in most editions of the game a young enough dragon probably wouldn't technically *need* to shapeshift to produce half-dragon children.
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