She-Hulk: Attorney at Law trailer

[Tonguez]

* @Tonguez Actually, we know a lot more. Ronin was never caught. We know that (1) he was Ronin throughout the "snap." That Natasha brought him back to help reverse the snap. So it was some time from 1 to five years leading up to the snap reversal. There is nothing from Yolena indicating that she thinks Hawkeye has suffered in any way, nor do people identify him in any way as having been punished. So no- your belied that he has been punished for his many many many murders makes no sense.

Barton was still under house arrest via Secretary Ross when the snap happened. Then after the original Thanos is killed he loses hope of getting his family back and because there is no government left becomes a vigilante killer. He is eventually brought in by Widow and given a chance to reverse the snap as the first person to test time travel.
Yelena is of the opnion he wasnt punished but at that point is still antagonistic to Barton so her opinion is probably biased. Nonetheless the show does make an effort to point out that rightly or wrongly the Avengers get special privilege of being ‘heroes’.
As per there time in the Raft, we know there are special deals being made with government authorities to hold them accountable without being incarcerated.

Then theres a whole question of who has the authority to punish Barton for his crimes as Ronin - the social effects of the snap have only been hinted at so far, but at least some government function was lost and had to be rebuilt.

but the escape from the Raft, Wanda leaving Westview and Ronins ‘retirement’ all beg the question - is there anyone who can arrest and hold a an avenger who doesnt volunteer to stay put

 

[Staffan]

but the escape from the Raft, Wanda leaving Westview and Ronins ‘retirement’ all beg the question - is there anyone who can arrest and hold a an avenger who doesnt volunteer to stay put

Also, Scott slipping his ankle monitor onto an enlarged ant while he was supposedly under house arrest.

 

[p_johnston]

I agree there is a big difference. Lets take a look and compare how the anger of our male hulk and female hulk have been treated in the MCU.

Male Hulk
Was hunted by the US government, using lethal force.
Was forced into exile for years living outside the bounds of society.
Was used as an example for the Sokovia Accords (even though that incident was actually 100% not his fault).

Female Hulk
Got minor jail time and lost her job
Immediately got back her reputation and job back by the end of the episode.

Also how much personal responsibility did our various Hulk's feel for their actions?

Male Hulk

• Felt like such a monster and threat to society that he tried to kill himself.
• After Sokovia, felt like such a monster and threat to society again (even though it wasn't his fault) that he exiled himself into space (which depending on how well he could have navigated that ship, could be construed as another suicide attempt).
• Commonly thought of himself as a monster until finally merging with the Hulk.
• Tried to instill that responsibility and importance of control into Jen.

Female Hulk

• Felt no remorse for the property damage she caused.
• Blamed all of her problems on Intelligencia.

Now you could argue that the Hulk did a lot more damage in his time (which is fair). You could also argue that the Hulk should have been in prison...though maybe he got special release for helping to save New York (or maybe was placed in "special custody" by SHIELD), but its fair to say none of that was explained. But at the end of the day, our Male Hulk got plenty of punishment for his "anger", society ripped into him plenty. Whereas our Female Hulk got a slap on the wrist. If the goal was to show that women get punished by society for showing their anger by comparing her treatment to her male counterpart....well then they failed miserably.

The better approach would have been to not have Jen do property damage, not burst through a brick wall. Have the gala occur, have the video air. Jen "loses it" and just roars and screams. People get scared, suddenly there are guns in her face, she gets put in jail, loses her job because of the publicity. NOW you have a case, this poor woman who just got a bit overwhelmed and screamed in public....no crimes committed, yet everyone freaks out. NOW you are pushing the message in a reasonable way, that this woman is being unfairly treated for "showing a little anger". Instead of what we got, which was a person committing a crime in public...getting arrested.

I did a post about it earlier but just to reiterate. Every single hero in the MCU would have acted in the exact same manor as Jen at a minimum. I cannot think of a single hero that wouldn't have destroyed the televisions and captured the fleeing dickbag. The only reason I can't say the same about destroying the brick wall is because a lot of other hero's wouldn't have been able to, not that they wouldn't. I would go further to say that most of the MCU hero's would have done much, much worse to both the guy at the scene of the awards and intelligencia as a whole.

To further the point let's take Captain America. The unequivocal good guy of the MCU. The moral compass of that entire universe. He's receiving and award and some Natzi Dickbag puts a sex tape of Peggy Carter on the screen. What does cap do? Well he destroys the TV's to stop the tape and chases down the Natzi Dickbag and you can bet your behind that he would Kool-Aid man through a wall to do so. The only difference there is that no one would blink an eye at Cap doing so.

 

[Cadence]

I did a post about it earlier but just to reiterate. Every single hero in the MCU would have acted in the exact same manor as Jen at a minimum. I cannot think of a single hero that wouldn't have destroyed the televisions and captured the fleeing dickbag. The only reason I can't say the same about destroying the brick wall is because a lot of other hero's wouldn't have been able to, not that they wouldn't. I would go further to say that most of the MCU hero's would have done much, much worse to both the guy at the scene of the awards and intelligencia as a whole.

To further the point let's take Captain America. The unequivocal good guy of the MCU. The moral compass of that entire universe. He's receiving and award and some Natzi Dickbag puts a sex tape of Peggy Carter on the screen. What does cap do? Well he destroys the TV's to stop the tape and chases down the Natzi Dickbag and you can bet your behind that he would Kool-Aid man through a wall to do so. The only difference there is that no one would blink an eye at Cap doing so.

Now I'm imagining the various Thor reactions one might get at different stages in the MCU...

 

[Ryujin]

The only reason that Black Widow wouldn't have left the Intelligencia guy bleeding out on the floor is that she would need him alive in order find, then deal with all the others. She might be one of the few MCU women who could get away with that, because it's expected at this point.

 

[Stalker0]

Okay, I guess this does need to be spelled out ...


The Ronin "stuff?" Hawkeye straight-up was killing people. It wasn't property damage. HE WAS KILLING PEOPLE. He was the baddie.*

And you keep getting hung up on consequences of ... this property damage? THIS PROPERTY DAMAGE? Have you ever watched an MCU movie? Let's put aside the possibility that there are people in building and cities that might have ... you know ... died ... the sheer amount of "property damage" caused by heroes on a regular basis is insane.

I mean ... I can't point this out any better than you have yourself, multiple times. If you are getting really hung up on this, if you just have to insist that She-Hulk be more punished for ... this property damage ... I don't think you'll find the answers on the screen.



* @Tonguez Actually, we know a lot more. Ronin was never caught. We know that (1) he was Ronin throughout the "snap." That Natasha brought him back to help reverse the snap. So it was some time from 1 to five years leading up to the snap reversal. There is nothing from Yolena indicating that she thinks Hawkeye has suffered in any way, nor do people identify him in any way as having been punished. So no- your belied that he has been punished for his many many many murders makes no sense.

So I read over your thoughts....and (que shocked side track)....I agree with you. There are a number of times when a person "should" have been punished more in MCU movies and wasn't.

So I thought about it a bit deeper. Why did it bother me so much in this show and not elsewhere?

The answer.... the spiderman phrase "With Great Power comes Great responsibility". The classic separation between heroes and villains is that heroes take responsibility for their power,

Now sometimes the MCU does that "externally", by actually inflicting punishment on the heroes when they do wrong. And sometimes its "internal", we see the heroes struggle with guilt, vow to do better, etc etc. But whether its internal or external, the common heroic theme is....heroes rise with their power, they pick themselves up, they take responsibility, they become better versions of themselves, etc.

That is what is missing from She-Hulk to me. There is no real character growth. You could say Jen has learned to be comfortable with her alter-ego....which is something, but its pretty flat all said and done. Had She-Hulk taken that moment as a bit of a wake up call, "maybe Bruce was right, I do have to respect these powers and what they mean", that could have been some interesting character development. Instead everything was just tidied up with a nice little bow, bad men did bad things, hulk smash, all is good for hulk again. Its....boring when your characters don't grow and evolve.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

So I read over your thoughts....and (que shocked side track)....I agree with you. There are a number of times when a person "should" have been punished more in MCU movies and wasn't.

So I thought about it a bit deeper. Why did it bother me so much in this show and not elsewhere?

The answer.... the spiderman phrase "With Great Power comes Great responsibility". The classic separation between heroes and villains is that heroes take responsibility for their power,

Now sometimes the MCU does that "externally", by actually inflicting punishment on the heroes when they do wrong. And sometimes its "internal", we see the heroes struggle with guilt, vow to do better, etc etc. But whether its internal or external, the common heroic theme is....heroes rise with their power, they pick themselves up, they take responsibility, they become better versions of themselves, etc.

That is what is missing from She-Hulk to me. There is no real character growth. You could say Jen has learned to be comfortable with her alter-ego....which is something, but its pretty flat all said and done. Had She-Hulk taken that moment as a bit of a wake up call, "maybe Bruce was right, I do have to respect these powers and what they mean", that could have been some interesting character development. Instead everything was just tidied up with a nice little bow, bad men did bad things, hulk smash, all is good for hulk again. Its....boring when your characters don't grow and evolve.

So, addressing this. You have to understand what the actual theme of the show is. Spiderman, for example, is often focused on "With great power comes great responsibility." But do you know what isn't?

Almost every other superhero arc, including almost every iteration of the Hulk. If you were looking for She-Hulk to be Spiderman, and to have that theme, you're going to be disappointed- just as if you went into Captain America: Civil War and were like ... dang, I wish they had explored the idea of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility." Or the latest Batman movie. Or the last Black Widow movie. And so on.

I'll give you another example. Some people think all superhero stories are supposed to be "fight, fight, and then fight the big bad." Again, if you were looking for that, you were going to be disappointed. Because that wasn't this show.

And it's okay to not like the choices that were made! Different people like different things. But you have to start by trying to understand what was trying to be accomplished, and the degree to which it was successful.

This show didn't "hide the ball." When you watched the first episode, you thought it was about Hulk trying to teach Jen about "being responsible." It wasn't. It was about Jen trying to stand up for herself- about affirming that she wasn't two different people, that she wasn't the same as Bruce/Hulk, and most importantly, she wasn't going to just be a superhero- she wanted her life that she had worked hard for and she wanted to be an attorney. Importantly, it also dealt with the theme of the difference between how women and men act and are perceived in society- something that continued throughout the season in serious (that gala....) and playful ways (such as Daredevil's "walk of shame"). The show practically hit you on the head with the themes- this wasn't going to be a MCU beat 'em up, but was going to be a fourth-wall breaking light comedy that touches on gender issues in society.

And that point was hammered home in the season (series?) finale. K.E.V.I.N. wanted to give the viewers what they expected from an MCU show. Solve things with your fists. Payoff to yet another "blood" plotline. Hulk comes to save the day. Etc. But Jen wasn't having this- she had already announced it in the penultimate episode (this is her show). This wasn't going to be a big battle royale. Hulk wasn't saving the day. Instead, we jump ahead and see regular ol' police arresting the Big Bad. And then Jen (as She-Hulk, and happily so) going into Court.

But Jen did massively evolve throughout the series. She went from resenting the intrusion of the She-Hulk alter-ego to integrating it. She didn't need to use hulk powers to smash the sneering and mediocre men trying to take her down- she could use her awesome Jen powers for that. She doesn't need to be She-Hulk to get a hottie like Matt Murdock- she can get him to an embarrassing family meal just as herself.

And she didn't need to take what was given to her in the season finale. She gets to advocate for the ending she wants. It's her show.


Again, in saying this, I don't think the show was perfect. When I ranked the MCU shows, I still rank it in the second tier of Disney+ MCU shows- along with Moon Knight and Loki. I think some of the jokes in the finale could have been better. I think the finale had some bad transitions. I think that the show could have focused a little more on the law side- the parts they did were pretty funny and did a good job with the absurdity of the MCU universe (like Mr. Immortal).

 

[Ixal]

So, addressing this. You have to understand what the actual theme of the show is. Spiderman, for example, is often focused on "With great power comes great responsibility." But do you know what isn't?

Almost every other superhero arc, including almost every iteration of the Hulk. If you were looking for She-Hulk to be Spiderman, and to have that theme, you're going to be disappointed- just as if you went into Captain America: Civil War and were like ... dang, I wish they had explored the idea of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility." Or the latest Batman movie. Or the last Black Widow movie. And so on.

Hulk was constantly faced with this problem, both in his own movie, in Avengers when Loki used this (for example the existence of the holding cell) to sow distrust and in Ultron when his actions were the reasons for the Accords and everything they caused. Not to mention that it led him to exile himself from Earth.

Iron Man has a similar theme with his good intentions coming back to haunt him and causing problems, again both in his own movies and in Ultron which directly set up Civil War because it shaped his character.

Thor was faced with the consequences of his actions in Thor 1 and Loki in his own series which contributed greatly for him to become more of an anti-hero than a straight up villain. And even Natasha had glimpses of this theme in Avenger of being haunted by her past as assassin.
That power corrupts was even the theme of Ant Man 1.

So, no, its not just Spiderman, its a pretty common theme.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Hulk was constantly faced with this problem, both in his own movie, in Avengers when Loki used this (for example the existence of the holding cell) to sow distrust and in Ultron when his actions were the reasons for the Accords and everything they caused. Not to mention that it led him to exile himself from Earth.

Iron Man has a similar theme with his good intentions coming back to haunt him and causing problems, again both in his own movies and in Ultron which directly set up Civil War because it shaped his character.

Thor was faced with the consequences of his actions in Thor 1 and Loki in his own series which contributed greatly for him to become more of an anti-hero than a straight up villain. And even Natasha had glimpses of this theme in Avenger of being haunted by her past as assassin.
That power corrupts was even the theme of Ant Man 1.

So, no, its not just Spiderman, its a pretty common theme.

You're mixing up different themes. "Power corrupts," is a very different theme than, "With great power comes great responsibilty."

This was the raison d'etre of Spidey- the reason he had to be a hero is because his refusal to engage in heorism- his selfishness, led to the death of his Uncle Ben. This is a simple and powerful message- if you have the power to do something, do it for weal (for good). This is nothing more than a modern example of the very old idea - entitlements also come with social obligations. Heck, you can see this idea (nobelesse oblige) in House of Dragons right now!*

But that's not the same as "power corrupts." Nor is it the same as the Hulk- in fact, it's far from it! The exile from the earth is the exact opposite of it. The themes that run through the various iterations of the Hulk have nothing to do with this.

The theme is very specific in Spiderman- and the modern form is more about civic virtue and duties.


*The idea that, "It's good to the be the King," pace History of the World, is always balanced by the responsibilities of the nobility.

 

[Stalker0]

She didn't need to use hulk powers to smash the sneering and mediocre men trying to take her down- she could use her awesome Jen powers for that.

I think that is part of what bothered me. I don't mind that Jen does things differently, finding another path other than violence I think is a great thing.

But there is no struggle, no real conflict at all. Jen just literally waves a magic wand, and gets the ending she wants. That's not really a satisfying story. It would have been like if Thanos had the full infinity gauntlet at the beginning of the movie, he walks up, wins....movie ends. Now since the show is supposed to be a comedy it could be played for laughs....but it really wasn't that funny either. I did have a light chuckle at the KEVIN bot, but that was about it.

So ultimately that's part of the failure to me, it didn't really fit in to any genre. It wasn't funny enough to be a true comedy, wasn't dramatic enough to be a drama. Not enough character dive to be a character profile show. It just...kind of did stuff, and stuff kinda happened.