Shift vs Move vs AoO?

[olshanski]

I haven't read the 4E rules yet, so I am not sure about the terminology.
Is a "shift" something special, or is it the same as normal movement?

One of my main concerns with the exceptions-based rules of 4E rather than the modular rules of 3.x, is that the more exceptional rules you have, the more likely it is that something will be overlooked and need clarification.

For example: If one creature has an ability "Can make an AoO whenever an opponent does X" and another creature has an ability "Not subject to AoO when doing X", then which one is correct if the situation arises?

Swordwing:
Sudden Strike (immediate reaction, when an adjacent enemy shifts; at-will)
The swordwing makes a melee basic attack against the enemy. The attack deals an extra 2d6 damage if it hits.

Crownwing
Flyby Attack (standard; at-will)
the crownwing flies up to 10 squares and makes one melee basic attack at any point during that movement. The crownwing doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks when moving away from the target of the attack.

Now, granted, these abilities are probably not an example of my concern... Is a "sudden strike" an AoO? It appears that if a crownwing used flyby attack on a swordwing, that the swordwing couldn't use its Sudden Strike...

I guess I don't have much to add for this post, other than a vague uneasy feeling.

 

[webrunner]

I haven't read the 4E rules yet, so I am not sure about the terminology.
Is a "shift" something special, or is it the same as normal movement?

Shifting is the equivalent to the "five foot step" in 3.5, only it now can be specifically more or less squares (rogues, for instance, can Tumble which shifts at half speed). So it doesn't cause AoOs

One of my main concerns with the exceptions-based rules of 4E rather than the modular rules of 3.x, is that the more exceptional rules you have, the more likely it is that something will be overlooked and need clarification.

For example: If one creature has an ability "Can make an AoO whenever an opponent does X" and another creature has an ability "Not subject to AoO when doing X", then which one is correct if the situation arises?






Now, granted, these abilities are probably not an example of my concern... Is a "sudden strike" an AoO? It appears that if a crownwing used flyby attack on a swordwing, that the swordwing couldn't use its Sudden Strike...

Sudden Strike is not an AoO, it's a 'triggered' ability, which is a new kind of thing in 4e. Triggered abilities have a specific trigger, (in this case, an adjacent shift), and they only and always can be used when that trigger happens.

Another example trigger is that young dragons seem to get "trigger: when first bloodied" breath weapons, which means they use it that one time during the combat and never again.

The only exception here is the shifts don't provoke AoEs, but that's basically what a shift IS, a move that doesn't provoke AoEs, same as the 5 foot step. I think you get a free 1-square shift every turn but i'm not sure.

 

[nightspaladin]

A shift is a move action that does not provoke Opportunity attacks. Normal it is only 1 square, though there are abilitiies that can increase that. It costs you your move action even though it only moves you 5 feet.

The sudden strike power essentially lets them make an Opportunity attack against an opponent that is trying to move away from them by shifting in order to not provoke the Opportunity attack.

 

[Dragonbait]

Shifting is a Move action, also. There is no 5-foot step. That becomes the Shift. It normally does not provoke OA (Opportunity Attacks.. They renamed it because .. Well, there was probably a really good reason to rename it that escapes me right now)

You could Shift twice in a round, Shift then move normally, or Shift and make an attack

Also, you can not normally Shift into difficult terrain. Elves can. It's one of their racial abilities.

 

[Dragonblade]

Sudden Strike is not an OA and is not subject to powers or abilities that modify how OA's work.

So if one monster had an ability to ignore OA's, it would have no effect on Sudden Strike.

 

[fuzzlewump]

Shift is the new 5-foot step, but I think some powers allow you to shift more than 1 square. Shifting is defined as a voluntary movement that doesn't provoke opportunity attacks unless explicitly stated. Any character can spend a move action to shift 1 square. Some powers allow you to shift as well as part of the standard action required to use the power, or whatever action it happens to be.

Movement provokes opportunity attacks just as they did in 3.0 and 3.5, that is, when you move away from or around something.

Now, granted, these abilities are probably not an example of my concern... Is a "sudden strike" an AoO? It appears that if a crownwing used flyby attack on a swordwing, that the swordwing couldn't use its Sudden Strike...

Sudden strike is the flavor name, the crunch is "(immediate reaction, when an adjacent enemy shifts; at-will)." An immediate reaction is one you can use outside of your own turn when an opponent triggers the condition. So, when an enemy adjacent to the swordwing shifts, or takes a "5-foot step", he uses this ability. The ability on a hit does 2d6 extra damage.

The crownwing's flying does not count as shifting, because just like in 3.5, movement isnot defined as a series of 5-foot steps. You're right in saying that the swordwings reaction doesn't trigger against the crownwings flight. Doubly if the crownwing was targeting the swordwing with its flyby attack.

Edit: Hmmm... yeah what they said.

 

[Dragonblade]

The sudden strike power essentially lets them make an Opportunity attack against an opponent that is trying to move away from them by shifting in order to not provoke the Opportunity attack.

Yes, but only in the sense that sudden strike gives you an attack the way an OA would. Sudden Strike is NOT an OA and is not subject to any rule or ability that affects OAs.

 

[Unlogic]

Shifts are the new "5 foot step", because now there are abilities which allow you to move more than 5' without provoking an AoO.

So in the case of the Crownwing vs the Swordwing;

If the Crownwing used Flyby Attack against the Swordwing, he's not shifting, he's moving, and the one creature he attacks is not permitted to make an AoO. If there's another Swordwing adjacent to the attacked one, Swordwing #2 may make his AoO for this movement.

If the Crownwing were adjacent to the Swordwing to begin with, and attempts to shift away, then Flyby attack someone else, the Crownwing denies the Swordwing any AoOs because he's shifting. However, the Swordwing gets to make a Sudden Strike attack instead.

AoOs are always only basic attacks, so the Crownwing is actually better off just running away from the Swordwing and taking an AoO than trying to shift away; being cautious risks him taking 2d6 more damage.

To Summarize:
Shift: move action; you may move 1 square without provoking an AoO.
Flyby Attack: standard action; move 10 squares and make a basic attack at any time during that move, and the creature you made that basic attack against cannot make an AoO in reaction to movement away from him.
Sudden Strike: immediate action; make an attack at +2d6 against someone trying to get away without provoking an AoO.

Hopefully that helps with that case, at least. I'm betting, pessimistically, that the PHB and MM errata is going to be full of minor phrasing changes to help clarify any powers which have actual phrasing conflicts.

EDIT: Very ninja'd...

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I think that the exception based stuff wont be too big a deal. On the player side, the PC's tend to have a pretty ironclad knowledge of their abilities. In other words, they generally do not forget what they are able to do.

Monsters will have the exception written into their full statblock. Assuming the DM has it in front of them, or a good summation thereof to refer to, the DM will probably not forget it, at least not for that encounter.

Based on the games I have run so far, people are more likely to forget about a modifier than they are to forget about an ability.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Mr. Teapot]

For example: If one creature has an ability "Can make an AoO whenever an opponent does X" and another creature has an ability "Not subject to AoO when doing X", then which one is correct if the situation arises?

Here's the thing: whatever the second creature is trying either automatically provokes OAs or it doesn't If it by default does provoke, the first creature won't have an ability that says "Can make an OA when an opponent does X". Because that would be silly and redundant. It would only have an ability that says that if the action doesn't normally provoke, in which case creature #2 wouldn't have an ability protecting him from OAs that don't normally happen.

Now, granted, these abilities are probably not an example of my concern... Is a "sudden strike" an AoO? It appears that if a crownwing used flyby attack on a swordwing, that the swordwing couldn't use its Sudden Strike...

Right in that Sudden Strike doesn't happen, but wrong as far as the reason. Since Flyby attack isn't a shift, Sudden Strike never triggers. (If it did somehow, the Crownwing would still get hit, as being immune to OAs doesn't make you immune to interrupts or reactions). As you said, probably not a great example.