Should a "specialist" wizard be demoted?

[Nifft]

Specialists have a built-in flaw -- they can't cast spells from their opposition school (or schools).

This guy can't cast any Necromancy. That's his mechanical drawback. Period. Nowhere does it say that a specialist MUST cast a certain number of spells of a particular school per day.

Let the poor guy have his fun. If you want, have people who have heard of him come to him with Divination questions -- "Could you help me ID this item? I hear you're a great and powerful Diviner!" -- while an Enchanter or Bard would get requests for love potions, etc.

That's my 2cp.

-- Nifft

 

[Bugaboo]

"Power this," and "Balance that." Sheesh. You people. It's not always about powergaming. Of all the posts here, only Henry came closest to the real issue ... even with an inadvertant misstep. Most everyone else is tossing the red herring around, trying to figure out the munchkin benefit.

For the question of principle, though, Bugaboo, someone who picks a rule, but breaks its spirit is still NOT breaking the rules. Remember this. From a balance standpoint, there is no undue power gained here, and the character WOULD be better prepared to face circumstances besides just blasting them.

Of course, roleplaying should be considered; if the DM is uncomfortable with the situation, the DM would need to work something out with the player. Perhaps the DM in the cmapaign has been throwing rather combat-heavy challenges at the party, and the "diviner" has needed to assume the role of artillery platform to catch up?

Yes, of course roleplaying should be considered. This guy is calling himself a Diviner even though he's casting as many divinations as any other wizard would cast.

(Quick aside for those of you who can't visualize this particular aspect of spell budgeting: A spell slot is a spell slot is a spell slot. The concept of a bonus slot is somewhat misleading. Let's say you normally have access to spells A, B, C, D and E, and you normally get to cast two spells and a "bonus" spell of a D type. A and B are generally useful, so you pick A, B and D. Now let's say that D is also useful enough that anyone would pick it and cast it once a day anyway. But in this case, your specialization slot allows bonus type B instead. So your ready list is A, D and B instead. ... Whoah! Major difference! ... It's like going to dinner with a friend and paying the $10 bill: You give him a five and he pays the waiter, or he gives you a five and you pay the waiter, but the outcome is still the same as two fivers are expended.)

If he's going to be a Diviner, then he should be paying the school more homage than a token spell every so often. If we're going to play the game that way, why not pick the toad familiar and carry it around in a steel box ... never interact with it, or pretend it's a special companion at all. Great roleplaying, that.

Know anyone who graduated from college with a degree that doesn't seem to serve a purpose other than the fact that it's a degree? A store manager, for example, whose resume shows he's got a BS in Psych. He doesn't bloody well pass himself off as a therapist or counselor or psychologist, does he? The pedigree paperwork is nothing more than leverage to get a better paying job than the average grunt, and he'll never use it any other way.

Well, I'm tired of that. I've had it up to >HERE< and this so-called "Diviner" is going down. Hard.

If he wants to divine something, let's see him divine why the next red dragon he meets keeps attacking him in the party first. ...

 

[Saeviomagy]

Lets take a look at the actual cost/benefit thingy:

Costs:
The player gives up one entire school of magic, one which, despite being a little slim on spells, is still quite powerful.

The player MUST make on of his two granted spells each level a divination. This means that your player should have two divinations at each level, not one. So slap him for breaking the rules. It also means that if there are no divinations at a certain level, he'll be forced to take a lower-level, probably crap spell he avoided taking earlier.

Benefits:
He gets to cast one extra DIVINATION spell at each spell level per day. At best, he'll cast it (and be a bit more of a specialist). At worst, he won't (so he may as well not have had the slot in the first place).

In other words - if you force him to give up his specialisation, he'll become more powerful, not less powerful.

 

[GiantInThePlayground]

Ahh, but what of the poor gnome??

If I wanted to create a gnome evoker who had a little fighting skill (say, 1 level of fighter), I would take a 20% XP penalty for the privelege. If I wanted to create a gnome illusionist who had a little fighting skill, no problem. That's pretty odd, and I have no problem with a gnome character taking the illusionist specialization but then focusing on other magic. In my mind, it represents the fact that his early life-experiences taught him a lot about illusions, despite the fact that he himself prefers other forms of magic. He's basically "double-specialized", being good both at his favorite spells as well as those his race excels at.

In the same way, it's possible that your wayward diviner has a knack for divination, whether he cares or not. He LIKES fire spells, but he's pretty good at divination. There are plenty of real world examples of this in everyday lives; I, for example, was very good at math in High School, but went to art school. I'm still decent at math, but I have really focused myself on art (and, more recently, writing D&D campaign worlds...).

The PHB might say that specialization is a choice on the part of the wizard, but it doesn't really have to be played that way. What if he had a strict master who drilled him in Divination magic day and night, but he secretly always liked setting things on fire?

Just because he's not doing a good job of roleplaying why his character prefers spells other than the ones he's good at doesn't mean that a good job couldn't be done, by someone.

 

[Umbran]

[BKnow anyone who graduated from college with a degree that doesn't seem to serve a purpose other than the fact that it's a degree? A store manager, for example, whose resume shows he's got a BS in Psych. He doesn't bloody well pass himself off as a therapist or counselor or psychologist, does he? The pedigree paperwork is nothing more than leverage to get a better paying job than the average grunt, and he'll never use it any other way.
[/B]

Except that:
1)If he's got the degree, even if his current job doesn't call for it's use, he doesn't lose the knowledge gained in school. The fact that right now he's flipping burgers doesn't mean he loses the ability to be a counselor when he needs to.

2)This diviner is not getting a better paying job than the average grunt. You yourself have called it "ineffective" munchkining. He's not using the special ability he gains, and is still hampered by the restriction. He's gone to college, gotten the sheepskin, is paying off the loans... but still gets the same wage as every other grunt.

So, keeping his abilities makes logical sense, and there's no rules-abuse reason to remove his abilities.

The DM is there to enforce rules (and to help provide fodder to turn into an interesting story). For a paladin, certain forms of behavior are "rules". Not so for a specialist wizard. You didn't say he had any restrictions on him before he started. He has had no reason to think that he's supposed to act in any other way. It is inappropriate and unfair to suddenly impose new rules on a character after the fact, except with the player's consent.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Primarily, the problem here is a case of a DM thinking that somehow the way that a player roleplays is wrong.

It's his character, not yours. If he was actually cheating, then yeah, go get him (or better yet, just tell him off). If he's just roleplaying to his own tune, then really you've got no business altering that unless it fundamentally undermines the game.

You could, however, introduce some roleplaying elements to it - like his old master showing up (or him showing up at his old master's place), telling him off for all this blasty stuff he does.

 

[reapersaurus]

I don't get you, Bugaboo.
Is this a serious beef you have, or are you just trolling incredibly confusedly?

I don't think this troll is very effective, since it's obviously too close to your true feelings to possess any humorous arms-distance that's necessary for your craft.

If it's serious, than I actually agree with your feelings - throw out the frickin rules, the guy is not roleplaying a specialist mage accurately.

NO specialist is going to be casting more spells of any other school that the one he specializes in, in my mind.
Anything less would be unworthy of his excellence in his field.

A fighter is one who fights.
A specialist mage is one who casts primarily that specialist school.

 

[Atma]

I just don't get it... what divination spells do you want him to use anyway? If he never gets attacked by anything invisible he can't very well use see invisible, and if he can communicate with everything there's no much point in casting tongues...

Most specializations have a clear "trait" that goes with them. Evokers blow stuff up. A lot. And really well. Necromancers cavort with the dead and negative energy. Transmuters change A into B. There's no real huge trait for diviners, so there's no stereotype to play up... which seems to be what you want him to do.

 

[Bugaboo]

Hey, I've seen the department's payroll reports, and I've seen how much more money an underling makes just because he's got a friggin' "specialist" degree that he never uses. I'm an assistant manager, fer cryin' out loud, with twice the work experience, but this yahoo is making more money than me?!

Does the party care about the "generic" wizard who can be counted on to quietly solve any problem? The guy who steps in with all the minor spells of industry? Noooooo... They want Mr. Hotshot Fireball, who throws around a title he doesn't deserve. That's totally wacked.

So if I want to sic an ancient red dragon on some smart-*** wannabe "Diviner" who can't scry his way out of a paper bag, then I'd say I'm only meting out some well-deserved justice.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

My experience in the past with divinations is that dms get angry or flustered when they are used. Due to not having prepared stuff or it will "wreck" a mystery adventure.

Cough, bulls***, cough...

This is not the case anymore and I as a dm highly recommend the use of divinations. It usually adds to the adventure if the pcs find stuff out, proactive foreshadowing and more info for informed decisions and all.

Now what i am saying is that maybe player X has been lashed previously and is reluctant to "provoke" you or any other dm. Or, the divinations have been continually thwarted by "magick" rolleyes: , i.e. lame knee jerk reaction) to the point of no longer being used.

You know the context best. Why don't you allow this player to be an evoker if that's how they're acting.