D&D 5E Should classes retain traditional alignment restrictions in 5E?

Which classes in 5E should retain alignment restrictions?

  • Assassin

    Votes: 51 31.9%
  • Bard

    Votes: 10 6.3%
  • Barbarian

    Votes: 27 16.9%
  • Druid

    Votes: 32 20.0%
  • Monk

    Votes: 35 21.9%
  • Ranger

    Votes: 15 9.4%
  • Paladin

    Votes: 67 41.9%
  • Warlock

    Votes: 19 11.9%
  • All classes should have alignment restrictions

    Votes: 6 3.8%
  • No classes should have alignment restrictions

    Votes: 88 55.0%
  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 9 5.6%

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
The only things on the list that I think should NOT have alignment restrictions are the bard and the ranger.

The other ones make sense to me:
You should be be evil if you kill for reward (assassin)

Barbarians should be non lawful. The very definition of the word barbarian includes words like savage, primitive, uncivilized, etc... Being non lawful does not mean that have no honor or that their people have no customs.

Warlocks make pacts with DEMONS. Alignment restriction does not bother me in this case.


malkav

Although... Killing for reward is pretty much all player characters isn't it? "slay me those bandits and I'll give you 100 gold coins!"

Barbarian tribes can have strict codes of ethics which are just different from civilised lands.

A warlock PC might have been forced into a pact with faerie lords, or the mysteries of the stars...

So is it as clear cut as all that?
 

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Fede

First Post
Personally, i never liked alignment as a concept, and I was happy when 4th edition removed its mechanical effect so i could simply toss it away. In my experience it only brought arguments, and never added anything to the game.

No, i would not like (or use) alignment restrictions on classes.

For the "should all gods have paladins?" argument I would propose a different (and a bit radical) point of view: all gods should have priests, and all gods should have warriors.
So, inspired by the tidbit in the seminars about the not heavy armored cleric,
I would have two classes:
the cleric is the priest, without heavy armour\weapons but with divine spells.
And the paladin is the warrior, heavily armed and with limited divine powers.
 
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Elf Witch

First Post
I don't see how being able to fight back is relevant to whether the killing is good or evil. You might be able to argue lawful or chaotic, but if you can justify the killing at all, then you should be looking for the most reliable way to accomplish the goal with minimal harm to anybody else.

Suppose you're dealing with an evil general leading a horde of monsters. The paladin rallies an army to face the general. Result: A bunch of innocent people die fighting the horde in order to get the paladin to where she can deliver the killing stroke. Alternatively, an assassin sneaks into the enemy camp, kills the general in his sleep, and glides out again, putting no one else at risk.

How is the paladin's approach more defensible, morally, than the assassin's? Or, in the immortal words of Tywin Lannister: "Explain to me how it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner."

And this, by the way, is why I detest alignment-driven mechanics.

People always go to extremes when discussing these situations and that is the issue. There will always be exceptions. You example of taking out the war leader is one of them. Sneaking in and killing him saves a lot of lives. I would like to point out that is a form of self defense this person has raised an army with which to strike with he is not an unarmed person incapable of fighting back. He has made his intention very clear.

Assassins kill for money and most of the time they are not killing an enemy leader in his camp they are taking out political and business rivals for someone with a grudge who does not have the courage to do the deed themselves. That is what an assassin is a paid killer. And trying to say it is okay for a good person to do this is just imo ridiculous.

As for the Tywin statement it is rather self serving. His family was one of the most murderous bunch around and lack any kind of honor.

Here is the difference when looking at honor and the lack there of. Inviting people to a dinner party and then killing them with poison is cowardly and dishonorable even if it prevents more bloodshed later. It may be a necessary act but it will never be a good or a lawful act. Which is why you hire an assassin to do it not a paladin.

I like alignment because it gives players a chance to role play out moral dilemmas and discourages what I call morally convenient. I don't mind a player playing a character who has morally convenient alignment as a concept but I cant stand getting a player who wants to play an honorable type character say a paladin or a samurai but wants the freedom to do what ever is easiest.

If you don't like alignment in a game that has it take it out I use some form of alignment in every game I run even ones that don't have them.

As for killing being a good or evil act killing is never a good act it is sometimes a necessary act. A good person does not stop being a good person because they kill to protect themselves or other people. A paladin sent out to capture bandits preying on travelers who ends up killing some when they resist and try and kill him and the people with him has not committed an evil act. If they surrendered and then he killed them that would be evil.

It is not black and white there are shades of gray and using alignments does not make everything black and white I know some people try and do that and I find that a limiting way to play alignment should not be a straight jacket but a guide on how your character chooses to do things.
 

Dausuul

Legend
People always go to extremes when discussing these situations and that is the issue. There will always be exceptions. You example of taking out the war leader is one of them. Sneaking in and killing him saves a lot of lives. I would like to point out that is a form of self defense this person has raised an army with which to strike with he is not an unarmed person incapable of fighting back. He has made his intention very clear.

Like I said, if you can justify the killing in the first place, you ought to be able to justify doing it by stealth. Please provide an example of a situation where killing somebody is justified, yet cannot be made out as some form of self-defense or defense of others.

Assassins kill for money and most of the time they are not killing an enemy leader in his camp they are taking out political and business rivals for someone with a grudge who does not have the courage to do the deed themselves. That is what an assassin is a paid killer. And trying to say it is okay for a good person to do this is just imo ridiculous.

Wait a minute, this is a totally different issue. Nobody's saying it's okay to be a killer for hire! But that's entirely separate from how you kill. A mercenary who butchers innocents in the open is just as bad as an assassin who does it in the dark of night.

As for the Tywin statement it is rather self serving. His family was one of the most murderous bunch around and lack any kind of honor.

Yet under his reign as Hand of the King, Westeros was peaceful and prosperous for twenty years. Eddard Stark, that most paladinly of Hands, plunged the realm into a disastrous civil war. I won't go so far as to say Tywin wasn't evil--anybody who uses a vassal like Gregor Clegane has a lot to answer for--but in this case he had a very good point. If you have decided somebody needs to die, it's silly to quibble over how you get the job done.
 

Elf Witch

First Post
Like I said, if you can justify the killing in the first place, you ought to be able to justify doing it by stealth. Please provide an example of a situation where killing somebody is justified, yet cannot be made out as some form of self-defense or defense of others.



Wait a minute, this is a totally different issue. Nobody's saying it's okay to be a killer for hire! But that's entirely separate from how you kill. A mercenary who butchers innocents in the open is just as bad as an assassin who does it in the dark of night.



Yet under his reign as Hand of the King, Westeros was peaceful and prosperous for twenty years. Eddard Stark, that most paladinly of Hands, plunged the realm into a disastrous civil war. I won't go so far as to say Tywin wasn't evil--anybody who uses a vassal like Gregor Clegane has a lot to answer for--but in this case he had a very good point. If you have decided somebody needs to die, it's silly to quibble over how you get the job done.

I am not sure I understand what you are trying to ask me to explain?

I don't ever think killing is a good act I think it sometimes is a necessary act which in my mind makes it a neutral act. But it should be a last option.

Yes I know the game rewards killing things but there is a way to set up encounters that makes it more than just killing. In our games the players who play good characters just don't go around killing everything in sight. For example a green dragon attacked the town the adventures are from. It was doing this because the adventures had earlier destroyed a settlement of lizard folk under the dragon protection. It was an accident the party went into rescue a captive and accidental set fire to the structure. So instead of just outright killing the dragon they negotiated a truce and the party paid a weregeld to the dragon to stop the attacks.

And while we were sneaking around the settlement we used only subdual damage to knock out anyone we came across and then tied them up which of course turned out bad when the fire started.


Using stealth and sneakiness to take out an armed enemy is not the same as inviting people to a social encounter and slaughtering them.

The reason I brought up assassins was because earlier someone brought up paladins killing more people in a war then an assassin does in their line of work.

I have only read the one book but if the Lancaster's had not been bent on committing regicide and putting a bastard child who was not of the king's blood on the throne then there would not have been civil war. It seems rather wrong to blame that on Eddard Stark who was only following the law.
 

Remathilis

Legend
Although... Killing for reward is pretty much all player characters isn't it? "slay me those bandits and I'll give you 100 gold coins!"

Barbarian tribes can have strict codes of ethics which are just different from civilised lands.

A warlock PC might have been forced into a pact with faerie lords, or the mysteries of the stars...

So is it as clear cut as all that?

In reverse order...

I don't see the need for warlocks to be evil, but (going back to the 3.5 warlock) the "any evil or chaotic" route works fine. It gives you LE devil pacts, CE demon pacts, CN star pacts, and CG faerie pacts, for example. I'm just not seeing an LG warlock, for whatever reason...

The barbarian issue depends on your definition of "lawful". If it means "lives within civilized societies laws" then they have to be non-lawful since they define non-civilized life. If you mean "has a code of honor/ethics" it gets dicey, but I also think most creatures have a code of honor or ethics, and that doesn't make you lawful. Further, lawful seems to imply discipline, which is the antithesis to the "raging fury" of a barbarian.

Yeah, all PCs end up killing for money. The difference is assassin implies striking at effectively unarmed targets, who may be acting well within the bounds of the law. A bandit knows he's an enemy of the law (even if he's Robin Hood), and there is a price on his head. He has chosen a criminal life and part of the price for ignoring societies laws is society sometimes sends dudes with swords to stop you. But an assassin's target? He could be a bandit lord, slaver, or money grubbing merchant of death, but he could just as likely be a corrupt official who uses the law as his shield, a rival businessman who has gained a legit upper-hand, or a good-natured reformer trying to make the world a better place, and who has gained the ire of powerful people resistant to change.

An assassin doesn't offer you surrender (a good assassin shouldn't even be noticed), or only use his tools in self-defense (as most good rogues do). He uses poison, stealth, disguise, and dark magic to do this. It doesn't matter to a trained assassin if your Hitler or Ghandi, if he is being paid to kill you, he's doing his job. If his conscious gets the best of him, he doesn't take the job. (and should be warned; picky assassins find a dearth of work). Neutral? I can see. Good? Not really, no.
 
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Crazy Jerome

First Post
I think alignment itself should be entirely optional (not embedded in any fashion), and that would make moot any alignment restrictions on classes. In optional modules and/or campaign-specific rules, do anything you want with it.
 

Viktyr Gehrig

First Post
I perceive morality in relation to goals.

D&D defines Good as "concern for the life and dignity" of intelligent beings. Assuming that every sane being, regardless of alignment, shares these values, they would have the same two basic goals: A) improve their own quality of life and B) improve everyone's quality of life. A Good act is any act that promotes B at the expense of A, and an Evil act is any act that promotes A at the expense of B; acts that promote both A and B are Neutral acts, regardless of which goal motivated them. (In the absence of some other moral value, harming both A and B at the same time is insane; this is a big part of why I hate BoED so goddamned much.)

Thus, the measure of a character's position on the Good-Evil axis is the proportion of the value they assign to the two goals; a character's Goodness is the ratio of B to A and their Evilness is the inverse. Being "pure Good" or "pure Evil" is a form of insanity, in which a character places no value on either self-interest or on the greater good.

The vast majority of acts performed by any sane character will be Neutral acts, and most sane characters of any alignment will perform Good and Evil acts when the benefit greatly outweighs the harm. Paladins are both Good and prohibited from Evil acts, but they're not obliged to choose the most Good act, or even to choose a Good act over a Neutral one; the same applies, in reverse, with Blackguards. Sometimes a Neutral act is more beneficial than a Good act, and even pure Good will choose it; likewise sometimes even pure Evil will choose self interest over inflicting harm to others.

You can try to enforce an alignment system where Evil is direct opposition to the greater good-- but then you would have a system in which Evil was almost completely non-existent, limited to demons and psychopaths. Under this system, Lawful Evil as represented by the Baatezu wouldn't be Evil, nor would the majority of historical or fictional villains.

You can apply the same logic with the Law-Chaos axis, except based on different values. Every sane person values both the order of a code of conduct-- whether that's a formal code of conduct or simply a personal code-- and the freedom to do whatever they want. Following your code of conduct at the expense of your freedom is a Lawful act, and doing what you want (or what you have to) at the expense of your code is Chaotic. Following your code when it's what you want to to do anyway is, of course, a Neutral act.

Of course, the more a character values living by a code-- the more Lawful they are-- the more extensive their Code of Conduct will be; most formal codes of conduct will have many more provisions than any person can reasonably observe, that more Lawful characters will observe more completely.

Pure Law and pure Chaos are completely alien to us because it isn't possible to define "order" or "freedom" in the absence of other values. That's why there's no Law/Chaos equivalent to Paladins and Blackguards and why it's almost impossible to base a campaign around Law vs. Chaos without incorporating the moral dimension to display the contrast.

You could attempt to define the Law-Chaos axis differently, but I haven't seen a satisfactory attempt yet-- any definition based on interaction with tradition or authority or the law is too culturally subjective to be useful, while a definition based on the existence or absence of a personal code of conduct would have the same problem as defining Evil as active opposition to the greater good. Definitions of "the good of the many" versus "the good of the few" are meaningless and inextricably bound with definitions of Good and Evil.

This is where the alignment restrictions on classes come in. Aside from the Paladin, who arguably gains his powers from his Code of Conduct as much as his deity, I don't think there's a single class whose alignment restrictions make a lick of sense.

Traditionally, Paladins are Lawful and Good: like any sane character, they value their freedom and their own self interest, but they value their honor and the greater good more. They are prohibited from committing Evil acts, but they are otherwise free to choose whether Law or Good is more important to them; a Paladin can legitimately choose "doing the honorable thing" over the greater good, or vice versa, and can even choose self-interest over either Law or Good, as long as they still show a strong preference for Law and Good and never cross the line into Evil.

I think this is why people argue over Paladins so much; their concepts of moral alignment and ethical alignment are so intermingled that they can't separate them-- which is why they can't tell the difference between smiting an unarmed demon-cultist and smiting an unarmed pickpocket. They're both "wrong" by the terms of liberal jurisprudence, but-- assuming the Paladin's code is based on liberal jurisprudence-- the former is a Chaotic act (and a Good act if it hurts the Paladin) while the latter is an insane act.

Of course, if dispensing field justice isn't against the Paladin's Code, they're not even Chaotic acts; smiting the pickpocket is only Evil if you assume that his death causes more harm than his thefts do, and smiting the demon-cultist isn't an Evil act under any circumstances.

I have no problem with Chaotic or even Evil Paladins, as servants of Chaotic or Evil deities, but I am opposed to Blackguards because the proper antithesis of pure Good is not pure Evil as I've defined it; the opposite of pure Good is being opposed to the greater good and being willing to sacrifice yourself in order to hurt the greater good. This is only appropriate for characters with demonic patrons, and such characters are always going to be short-lived.

Assassins are assumed to be Evil because they are conceived as killers-for-hire who don't care about their target as long as they get paid-- they're willing to compromise the greater good for their own benefit. This isn't really a necessary assumption, since an Assassin isn't necessarily motivated by profit-- an Assassin can easily be altruistic, killing for the greater good, just as an Assassin can have a strong personal ethos that guides their actions.

A Lawful Good Assassin, as rare as he is, is still a cold-blooded murderer, surgically removing threats to order and the greater good. He doesn't have honor, but he has his integrity-- he'll never betray his liege for money, never kill anyone without just cause, and he'll carry his liege's secrets to the grave.

A Chaotic Good Assassin is even rarer. He's got a simple code-- "no women, no kids"-- and he might make an exception if the mark is nasty enough, but he never kills anyone who doesn't have it coming. He kills tyrants and corrupt authorities so that regular people can breathe a little freer.

It makes sense that Warlocks would tend toward either Chaotic or Evil-- Evil has no problems keeping their promises to fiends, while Chaotic has no problem breaking them-- but the existence of Star and Fey Pact Warlocks says that Lawful and Good are perfectly viable choices. (Why no Celestial pact, by the way? "If you promise to promote the greater good, I'll give you the power to do so" is the same deal Good Clerics make with Good deities.) There's really no good reason not to allow Warlocks to be any alignment.

Monks and Barbarians are a personal pet peeve of mine, but they're actually the most reasonable alignment restrictions out of all the ones I'm opposed to-- which is pretty much all of them, except Clerics and the aforementioned Paladins. Barbarians are wild and undisciplined, following their instincts over formal rules and laws; Lawful savages are probably Rangers. Their opposite number, Monks, gain their powers from discipline-- they don't have a restrictive code of conduct, but they do derive their power from spending hours in meditation and pursuing grueling exercises to improve themselves.

That said, I'm still opposed to the alignment restrictions on both classes. Barbarians are savage and undisciplined, but many "savage" cultures are known for their powerful sense of honor. (That's a Code of Conduct.) Monks are disciplined in training, but nothing stops them from following consequentialist ethics or even from acting on every passing fancy.

And then there's the classes where the alignment restrictions don't make any sense at all: Bard and Druid.

Bards can't be Lawful because they wander (like Monks and... everyone else), because they're intuitive (like Sorcerers), and because they follow "whim" rather than tradition-- which is in no fashion supported by the rules and certainly isn't based on the historical role of bards, or skalds, or geisha, or any other kind of "bardic" character.

And Druids are just ridiculous. Maybe, in the AD&D days, when they could only be Neutral-- completely unaligned-- it made sense, but "any Neutral" doesn't make any sense. If a class can be Lawful or Good, there's absolutely no reason that they cannot be Lawful and Good; the Lawful component of their alignment is completely unrelated to the Good component, and Lawful Good is not any more "extreme" than Lawful Neutral or Neutral Good. There is no component of any alignment that violates the Druidic ethos of protecting the natural world-- though extreme forms of any alignment could.

So as much as I like keeping alignment as a tool, I want to see it completely removed as a mechanical restriction on classes.

edit: And then there's the issue of my alignment... which I usually represent as either LN or LE because of how D&D defines "Good"; I'm passionately altruistic, but my definition of "Good" and "the greater good" is different from D&D's and I'm willing to do some vicious, ugly stuff to promote it.
 
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Mokona

First Post
Should D&D have flaws that are independent of class choice and should paladin-code be a flaw with drawbacks and corresponding minor mechanical benefits you get for subjecting yourself to the restrictions?

Could "evil" (aka the old Assassin alignment requirement) be a flaw with drawbacks and corresponding minor mechanical benefits?
 

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