Should he recognize a rust monster? (Savage Tide Mild Spoiler)

[ArmoredSaint]

There shouldn't be rust monsters at all. Fighters get the screw job ten times too much as it is.

QFT. I wouldn't play with a DM who went out of his way to destory my precious gear just because he was bored of throwing only things that inflict damage at his players.

 

[prospero63]

There shouldn't be rust monsters at all. Fighters get the screw job ten times too much as it is.

And this is really the point IMO. The nerfing of DnD that is 3rd Edition in conjunction with the conceptual opinion that fighters should be able to do what wizards and clerics do. I've gamed for 25+ years. I've run across rust monsters with all those characters, in all that time, maybe, maybe 5 times. Rust monsters aren't running all over the place. They aren't orcs or kobolds.

When did the game stop presenting challenges for the players to overcome?

 

[prospero63]

QFT. I wouldn't play with a DM who went out of his way to destory my precious gear just because he was bored of throwing only things that inflict damage at his players.

QFT. "As a player, I only ever want to succeed. If something is new, different or challenging, I want no part of it. If I can't be an epic god in 5 sessions, I'm going back to WoW".

Sorry, I just don't buy it. There's a HUGE difference between running across a rust monster in one's adventuring career, and having a malicious DM that throws nothing but rust monsters and sundering giants at the characters... To equate the two is silly. Given the OP's questions, I hardly think he falls into the latter category.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

QFT. "As a player, I only ever want to succeed. If something is new, different or challenging, I want no part of it. If I can't be an epic god in 5 sessions, I'm going back to WoW".

Ever tried to play WoW? I did. It was not funny - my first two "quests" involved killing kobolds and wolves to gather a few items I had to give to some NPC. I didn't advance a level. I stopped and thought: "Nah, I don't have time for this. Back to Never Winter Nights and my sunday D&D sessions" (not that I would have given up any of this, anyway ) Don't believe for a moment that WoW or any other game are all about instant gratifications.

Sorry, I just don't buy it. There's a HUGE difference between running across a rust monster in one's adventuring career, and having a malicious DM that throws nothing but rust monsters and sundering giants at the characters... To equate the two is silly. Given the OP's questions, I hardly think he falls into the latter category.

I agree there is a huge difference.

But: Do you really need to screw the players at all? Or is it enough to have them fail due to the simple fact that they weren't able to save the princess, disrupt the demon summoning, stop the invading army, or avert the apocalypse this time?

Let's face it, when I think of losing a shield, sword or armor (or all three) to a Rust Monster, I don't have it as a happy event that filled me with joy. It was mostly annoying. Well, not saving the princess is not a joyful event (usually), but it was probably not annoying either.

 

[pawsplay]

In the following session, one PC is going to encounter a rust monster. He's a 4th level Water Genasi Fighter with 14 Int and no ranks in Knowledge skills. Should he recognize the rust monster for what it is or not?

It's tricky - if I show him a picture, the player will recognize it. If I describe it as "an orange beastie with wierd antennae" and then have it destroy his new magic shield or his bestest sword, there'll be uproar.

Any tips for handling such a situation, folks?

That's a roleplaying situation that is up to the player to decide.

 

[Fifth Element]

One thing to remember in cases like this: the character has lived in the D&D world *all his life*. He probably trained to be a Fighter since he was a wee lad. More than likely, he listened to stories of veterans about trolls regenerating, rust monsters eating swords and whatnot.

But this is precisely what allowing the DC 10 Knowledge check for the untrained represents. The DC for "common knowledge" per the rules is 10. Anyone can make checks for common knowledge.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Just to remember the original topic:
By RAW, a Knowledge (Dungeoneering) check might allow the Fighter or anyone else in the party seeing "rusty" to identify it.

It appears as if the general rule for identifying monsters bases the DC on the HD, so it's effectively not possible for characters that aren't trained in Knowledge (Dungeoneering).
I think it's a flaw in the skill system that characters are not automatically granted the ability to know things that fit into their implied backgrounds. The DC itself is probably also flawed since it doesn't account for rareness and noteworthiness of a monster (Vampires don't exist in the real world, but next to everyone knows something about how to defeat them if they'd exist. Even if the information might be sketchy and incomplete...)

I think the solution to give some subtle hints are good.

 

[Klaus]

But this is precisely what allowing the DC 10 Knowledge check for the untrained represents. The DC for "common knowledge" per the rules is 10. Anyone can make checks for common knowledge.

Yes, but the skill DC should also take into account background and rarity of the information.

 

[prospero63]

But: Do you really need to screw the players at all? Or is it enough to have them fail due to the simple fact that they weren't able to save the princess, disrupt the demon summoning, stop the invading army, or avert the apocalypse this time?

This is the heart of my issue here though. I don't agree with the premise that it's "screwing the player". It's a different kind of challenge. Fundamentally, it's no different than the level draining undead, the sunder rules (the only player I ever saw that sundered things got the crap beat out of him by the rest of the party), etc. Being the hero sometimes means taking a loss (beit equipment, cohorts, party members, etc.)

Let's face it, when I think of losing a shield, sword or armor (or all three) to a Rust Monster, I don't have it as a happy event that filled me with joy. It was mostly annoying. Well, not saving the princess is not a joyful event (usually), but it was probably not annoying either.

Sure, but that's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing that sometimes equipment is lost, characters die or the mission fails. I don't know, I just didn't come up in the "everyone must succeed, all the time" school of thought. To steal a line from a song "Not every kid made the team when they tried. We got disappointed and that was all right, we turned out all right". Well, not every hero succeeded when they tried. They got disappointed and that was all right. They turned out alright. It's those failures and losses that make for a truly rich gaming experience IMO.

 

[prospero63]

Yes, but the skill DC should also take into account background and rarity of the information.

I'm my house rules, that is what I do. If there is a good reason, especially from a rich character background, for a player to know something, that counts on the DC. In this case, without any of the background, DC15 is what it is. With more background, I could see that adjusting downward, maybe even to a DC10. Then again, if rust monsters are super rare, one would have to figure that the stories about them are probably a little embellished. "No, really, it was *this* big".