Should I nix the PC's Paladin status?

[Conaill]

But you did give me a good idea for that city of injustice their heading to. Thanks!

Tie-in to another thread (forgot where though, anyone?)... have it be a city where Law (even unjust Law) is more important than Good.

How about a law that requires everyone who has been Detected as Neutral or Evil wear the mark? The little kid might have gotten caught thinking bad thoughts about its parents after getting spanked, now he or she has to wear that mark for a set period of time, with a penalty of death (for Evil) or forced labor (for Neutral).

 

[Lela]

Tie-in to another thread (forgot where though, anyone?)... have it be a city where Law (even unjust Law) is more important than Good.

How about a law that requires everyone who has been Detected as Neutral or Evil wear the mark? The little kid might have gotten caught thinking bad thoughts about its parents after getting spanked, now he or she has to wear that mark for a set period of time, with a penalty of death (for Evil) or forced labor (for Neutral).

I'm trying to avoid using alignment as this is a city predominantly disposed to St. Cuthburt but is being corrupted by Hextor (who's not FR, that's kinda the point). Many of the aristocrats, guardsmen, and others are LN or LE. They are being corrupted by--or outright worshipping--Hextor.

Things like death by hanging for petty theft and torture for lies (the crime in Hextor's eyes is being caught lying). Extreme mistrust of other races (especally Elves) and those who assosiate with them. Arcane spellcasters would also be subject to scrutiny.

Maybe those who are Chaotic should wear the mark instead. After the Paladin is taken by the guards most of the group would be given the patches and told to wear them.

And the city is preparing for war.

How's that sound?

 

[Dragonblade]

Actually, nemmerle. I enjoyed your quote immensely.

Perhaps, I would have had the paladin overreact. Eillistrae may be right to chastise the paladin for his impatience in breaking into her chambers.

But to call for the removal of his paladinhood when he is only trying to do the right thing, is way out of line. Especially for a good goddess and for something so minor as trying to break into her chambers to seek her aid.

She and Tyr may both chastise the paladin. But Tyr would definitely rebuke Eillistrae for even suggesting that his paladin be stripped for so insignicant an offense.

 

[reapersaurus]

Whoa.
Lela, I predict 2 things: you're not going to like my words, and you're not going to change any of your opinions about paladins OR theis situation.

So, let me proceed with a Righteous Smackdown.

ARE YOU CRAZY, LELA?!

You're going to railroad your paladin player unjustly to satisfy your personal campaign ideas?
Bad form.

Here's an aspect that noone's caught yet:
Do you know how hard it is to be with a group of people and go against the flow of the other players strictly for the 'roleplay'?

I commend that paladin player for realizing the right paladin thing to do during that brief break.
Many times I have had to take a brief step-back from the gaming table to see the proper action.
Paladins are hard, especially in these cases where they are required to go against the partry wiahes.

And I would bet you personally that the whole party was wanting the action to go one way, and after the brief break, he stepped up and played the paladin role perfectly.

This guy OBVIOUSLY knows how to roleplay a paladin, and you're picking at nits.

How's about this nitpick : What were you doing allowing a Diplomacy check to distract, or flirt with a diety's secretary?
It should have been a Perform check, or a straight Charisma check (since there's no Seduction skill).

While the player may have known what the lock-picking character was going to do, all the paladin knew was his adventuring mate asked for help. These characters risk life and limb together in the pursuit of Good and the glory of Tyr (and I'm sure have accomplished much togehter).

How dare you pick at the smallest possible discretion, when as others have pointed out, the diety was being quite unhelpful.

From my read of your story, the players were given evidence BY YOU that the diety was there.
They knew a loyal follower of hers was in mortal danger, and logically assumed they were supposed to gain the diety's attention (perhaps they were SUPPOSED to get past the (possessed?!?) secretary obstacle as proof of their conviction?)

There are many things the party did right, and the paladin player did right.

For you to presume an oversight is manufacturing garbage on your part.
Try to get your player-machination lollies out some other way : don't screw with a good paladin player's character to get it.

If you want to delve into a "fallen paladin" scenario - I'd suggest talking to your PP about it - I'm confident he'd love to indulge it, as long as it's done well.
I doubt if that good of PP will screw up enough to do a Fallen Paladin schtick without you screwing him over.

and that's my 324 cents worth.
you're PP is welcome to thank me for the words he can't tell you himself.

 

[Lela]

Okay, my immediate reaction to all this is hold up my arms and say, "Whatever. If I come to you guys for help and all I get is people constantly attacking me for even having the thought, then screw you."

But then I think, maybe you're all right and I'm wrong. Perhaps I'm indulging my own wishes and pleasures by trying to make the Paladin fall. Perhaps that is what I've been secretly hoping for all along. Perhaps I'm railroading the player by use of the gods. Perhaps I'm taking the Code of Conduct to it's extreeme just to provide an outlet for my own guilty sinful pleasures.

I know neither of those is the case in this situation. Now, you were only mostly right on your predictions Rep. I didn't hate everything you said. Some of it I agreed with--as I'm sure you noticed as you were reading through the thread.

I don't plan to revoke his status. I don't plan to make him do anything. I don't plan to destroy his character concept for my petty whims. All of that you don't want me to do and I agree.

In fact, I'm unsure of where everyone got the idea that I was hoping to make the guy play the fallen paladin angle. One guy mentions it, I say it would be cool but I won't force him to do it and suddenly the Gelatious Cube hits the colossel Wilo'th Wisp. What's up with that?

How's about this nitpick : What were you doing allowing a Diplomacy check to distract, or flirt with a diety's secretary?
It should have been a Perform check, or a straight Charisma check (since there's no Seduction skill).

IYO that is. In fact, I've played in a game where they did have a Seduction skill (not like that, geese guys) and they used Wisdom. Regardless, he beat her by a massive amount. She rolled way low and he rolled way high. She ended up with a 12 or so and he started by rolling a 19. Would it have made much difference? I doubt it. And he was actually RPing the conversation with himself. Then again, you meant this as an example of nitpicking. In that case, it's a good thing I've yet to sign anything and send it in to Monte Cook or Skip Williams saying I'd fallow the rules exactly or I'd loose my DM status. I could be in trouble then. Though it would be a minor infraction and I'd expect the same light handedness from them as I'm giving the Paladin in question.

Just to recap, I've seen two arguements for not revoke status.

1. It was a minor indescretion and doesn't warent a fall from grace. Do something small to remind him that he's still being watched and shouldn't fail again.
2. Lela, you're an idiot who doesn't know what your talking about. You put them in a no-win situation and expected them to find a way out of it. How dare you even think of punishing the paladin for helping someone unlawfully enter a somewhere they have been asked by a legedimate authority not to go. (Notice I left out the goddess part. That has little effect here.)
   [/list=1]
   
   To those who say #1, I agree. I don't plan to do anything I wasn't going to do already. The player knew it was coming and has been thinking about it. This just turned out to be a perfect time with a perfect distraction to avoid metagameing.
   
   To those who say #2, it's possible that you misread what I said (which would be my fault). It's also possible that you don't play the same campaign style I do and are letting that get in the way of your judgment (which would be your fault). It may even be that you've had DMs railroad you in the past and are out to make sure that doesn't happen. More likley you are just chaotic by nature or see me as acting overly lawful. If that's the case, I assure you I only say what I say because I believe Tyr would see it that way. If you havn't read his notes in Faiths and Panthions or at least the FR handbook, go do so.
   
   

   If you want to delve into a "fallen paladin" scenario - I'd suggest talking to your PP about it - I'm confident he'd love to indulge it, as long as it's done well.
   I doubt if that good of PP will screw up enough to do a Fallen Paladin schtick without you screwing him over.

   
   
   Good idea. I'll think on that. Though I doubt he want's to do it. And, in case someone else missed it, I WONT FORCE HIM TOO!!!
   
   

   For you to presume an oversight is manufacturing garbage on your part.
   Try to get your player-machination lollies out some other way : don't screw with a good paladin player's character to get it.
   

   
   Well, I think that all my players, including the PP, thought I ran the session just the way I should have. I can send them here to vouch for that if no one believes me. And I do care that you do believe me. I've found a home here and enjoy almost everyone's thoughts on various issues. Even this one.

 

[Immort]

All I can say darlin' is that ya came lookin' fer advice, but ya spent the whole thread arguin' against it. If yer just lookin' fer someone ta justify a decision ya already made, it don't seem that a lot of that is happenin'. If ya are simply putting their advice to the test ta see if it holds up despite arguments to the contrary, that's fine but ya seem to be gittin' a mite upset if that was yer aim.

Seems to me that the general agreement of the thread seems to be that he messed up, but should be allowed to atone for his mistake. I would concur. I do very much appreciate the paladin class, and applaud yer wantin' to include the harsh realities of the RP aspect of it. (holy liberator just IRRITATES me)(all the bennies none of the penalty) I can appreciate that fer paladins, the ends don't justify the means. If yer askin' a goddess fer help and she says no, that means yer on yer own bucko. Mess with that, and yer gonna have ta pay.

In closing, ya asked fer advice and ya kin chose whether to take it or leave it.

-Immort

 

[jgbrowning]

I don't think you're an idiot lela. It's your game. You're the GM. Anyone who thinks you don't have the right to do what you want to do in your game needs to take a breather and rethink a bit.

If you're happy and your players are happy, thats all that matters.

Personally, i play the law as big as the good. Slap him hard! Breaking and entering?!? into a temple of a good god?!? The mind boggles that people just think that "well, its in the persuit of good, so its ok." Thats NG or CG.. they persue good in that manner, not paladins.

And IMHO, breaking the lawful side of LG is just as bad as breaking the good side of lawful good. But i'm in the minority here...

I'd make him play without his special pally powers for a little while, a session or two, until he atones. We'll actually, i'd just let him play a paladin without the silly alignment restrictions, but that's just me.

take care,

joe b.

 

[Lela]

All I can say darlin' is that ya came lookin' fer advice, but ya spent the whole thread arguin' against it. If yer just lookin' fer someone ta justify a decision ya already made, it don't seem that a lot of that is happenin'. If ya are simply putting their advice to the test ta see if it holds up despite arguments to the contrary, that's fine but ya seem to be gittin' a mite upset if that was yer aim.

Seems to me that the general agreement of the thread seems to be that he messed up, but should be allowed to atone for his mistake. I would concur. I do very much appreciate the paladin class, and applaud yer wantin' to include the harsh realities of the RP aspect of it. (holy liberator just IRRITATES me)(all the bennies none of the penalty) I can appreciate that fer paladins, the ends don't justify the means. If yer askin' a goddess fer help and she says no, that means yer on yer own bucko. Mess with that, and yer gonna have ta pay.

In closing, ya asked fer advice and ya kin chose whether to take it or leave it.

-Immort

Well, I thought I only argued with those who went with option #2 (above). But you're right. And I agree with you.

Must be your wolverine like charm Immort. I could sware I'm reading a comic book here.

I've always disliked it when someone posted a thread and then waited a week to respond to it again whilst everyone else threw out ideas. Now I see why they do it. Talking and asking questions seems to only get you in trouble. I'll remember that.

So, post away all. I won't respond until after the next session (uh, that is, in about a day). I'll read the posts before I go and let you know how it goes after.

 

[Lela]

I don't think you're an idiot lela. It's your game. You're the GM. Anyone who thinks you don't have the right to do what you want to do in your game needs to take a breather and rethink a bit.

If you're happy and your players are happy, thats all that matters.

Personally, i play the law as big as the good. Slap him hard! Breaking and entering?!? into a temple of a good god?!? The mind boggles that people just think that "well, its in the persuit of good, so its ok." Thats NG or CG.. they persue good in that manner, not paladins.

joe b.

Urge to respond rising! Must resist! Save post for later. . .

Just so you know I'm not ignoring you joe b.

 

[Neverwinter Knight]

Whoa! What's going on here? What is wrong with some of you people, stop being a******* !

to the critics:
-----------------

1. This is a question about a paladin's status decision, it is posted in the General Forum, so quit being smart-asses about unimportant stuff like "You shouldn't have used the diplomacy check".
2. Someone asking for your opinion and receiving THESE replies? Shame on you!
3. This is about opinions, not what is right or wrong. What you think is right, need not be the appropriate course of action for this problem.


to Lela:
-----------

Think from the god's perspective. Whether or not the paladin was obsessed with rules is of no concern to me. Think how Tyr sees the incident.
I am concerned, however, about the paladin's motives. If he only changed his course of action because he was afraid for his precioussss status, I would definately give him a temporary penalty (e.g. revoke some of his powers for a session), but he really did have moral qualms, I'd grant him a vision of Tyr shaking his finger at him or something.

Be careful, don't take away the paladin's status for small things - likewise don't let him get it back too easily. It is a DM's challenge to decide when to take it away and when to give it back. But it is vital that, when you take it away, the characater should be able to recover it within a reasonable amount of time (two sessions sound right to me), otherwise it is too frustrating for the player.

I did not understand that "then the PP went to the bathroom" business. Please explain.

I like the idea of a god having a secretary and that they come to visit (Let your clerics call my clerics, then we'll do lunch.). That's great.
I would have Tyr back-up his paladins and clerics to other gods, though. I mean, they're just mortals after all...


So, NO, I would not take his status away, but punish him. Maybe Tyr makes him undertake a quest for the elven godess. How about this: He has to rescue her lost cleric. Maybe with a twist.