Should I nix the PC's Paladin status?

[DanMcS]

A Paladin should first be good in all aspects, but at the same time, follow the laws to do good; however, standing by and allowing a law to harm the innocent is evil. It's a catch 22.

Why do people emphasize the good over the law aspect? It's pretty much the default assumption for D&D, that the good-evil axis is more important than the law-chaos axis; thus you have LG, NG, and CG celestials allied against all evil, rather than LG, LN, and LE allied against chaos. I don't think this has to be the only way to play a paladin though. It should be as easy to give a little more emphasis to law, as it is to give a little more to good.

 

[nharwell]

Why do people emphasize the good over the law aspect?

Because the paladin's code as defined in the PHB is focused more on "good" than "law." Also, the archetypes the class is based on (Arthurian knight's, the character from Three Hearts and Three Lions, etc.) are more "good" than "lawful."

 

[sword-dancer]

No

I didn`t see he did something evil or unrighteouss.
Ok they want to break in a room, for what?
To ask somebody for Help!
Or to put it flat to ask a good Elf goddess to help them to get a chance to rescue a good elven women of her faith out of an orcish stronghold!
Soory I think the clerk need a refreshment of the priorities.
So like cleaning the sanitarie room the next hundred years or such?

Tyr is LG and stood for the just law.
Not of the law in itself.
There is no evil intend, their is good intent.
And lawful didn`t meant following the written law but folowing his moral code principles, OTOH the true AL should be defined as LG but as rieghteousness.

 

[Mallus]

Here's my general advice... Never let the rules get in the way of telling a good story...

Lela, you have here a very dramatic situation here. Make use of it as a DM. Don't just strip paladinhood from the character nor just wrist-slap them. Weave story. Its a classic situation. What do you honor, a grieving friend who wants his wife back, or the letter of the law of your God{s}. Why its practically Greek tradgedy.

I'd start with putting the paladin on a quest for attonement, one that ends in the resurrection of the dead wife. Make it cost the PC, but provide rewards, and maybe another moral conundrum or two...

 

[el-remmen]

Public Rat Bastards Forum

Hey, I replied to this thread here.

 

[Dragonblade]

Let me get this straight: They are trying to get into see a GOOD goddess to help out their friend and companion.

But the GOOD goddes can't "fit them in her schedule" so the paladin suggests trying to break into the office so they can see her.

And you are thinking about stripping his abilities because of that?!?!?

Ridiculous! If I was the paladin character I would be livid. I would publicly chastise the goddess herself. How dare she criticize him for trying to help her own follower?! A follower the goddess apparently she "doesn't have time for".

I would call the so-called "goodness" of the goddess into question and demand that SHE be the one to atone and apologize to my paladin.

And Tyr should also defend his paladin. The paladin was in the right and it is the goddess who should be repentant for her ridiculous request to punish the paladin.

As far breaking into the office that was absolutely the right choice. Just because lawful is a component of the paladin's alignment doesn't mean they must blindly follow all the rules simply because there are rules.

 

[el-remmen]

Let me get this straight: They are trying to get into see a GOOD goddess to help out their friend and companion.

But the GOOD goddes can't "fit them in her schedule" so the paladin suggests trying to break into the office so they can see her.

And you are thinking about stripping his abilities because of that?!?!?

Ridiculous! If I was the paladin character I would be livid. I would publicly chastise the goddess herself. How dare she criticize him for trying to help her own follower?! A follower the goddess apparently she "doesn't have time for".

I would call the so-called "goodness" of the goddess into question and demand that SHE be the one to atone and apologize to my paladin.

And Tyr should also defend his paladin. The paladin was in the right and it is the goddess who should be repentant for her ridiculous request to punish the paladin.

As far breaking into the office that was absolutely the right choice. Just because lawful is a component of the paladin's alignment doesn't mean they must blindly follow all the rules simply because there are rules.

I must answer this short-sighted and typically mortal view with this from the Book of Job:

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

It is not the paladin's place to question the goddess - even the very wise do not know all ends.

Also, see my reply (above) where Lela posted this to another board.

 

[Lela]

Hmm...I think you are being a bit tough on the Paladin class, which takes a lot of flak. It can be difficult at best to find someone who will play that class. Try to put his actions in this context: "A Kingdom has a set of laws that stated that all followers of a certain religion must wear a mark on their coat or face execution. While the Paladin is aware of this law, he still acts to save a child from execution after the child loses his public mark."

Would the Paladin lose his status? It sounds as if you would force the Paladin to lose his status for this act, but the same Paladin would also lose his status for not helping the child as allowing a child to be executed would be an evil act.

A Paladin should first be good in all aspects, but at the same time, follow the laws to do good; however, standing by and allowing a law to harm the innocent is evil. It's a catch 22.

I know your example is meant to be retorical. Bare with me. In this case I would refer to the dogma/view of Tyr. Tyr's clerics do not uphold unjust laws regardless of the authority of those who pass them. The law you mention would be considered unjust. He also holds a special spot in his heart for children and is more willing to grant them mercy. There's a double shot right there.

But you did give me a good idea for that city of injustice their heading to. Thanks! I wonder how many of my players will recognize the WW2 reference there.

It also sounds like you as a GM wish to explore the status of fallen Paladin, but you should never force a player onto that road. Heck, if I felt that the GM forced me to lose my Paladin status then I would get the character killed off and make a new one. No sense in playing if it will not be fun.

If your player wants to explore such issues, then great, but I could see where a GM could alienate a person by being arbitrary and forcing someone to play a certain way because of their own desires or beliefs.

Dave

If I came off that way, I did mean too. While I do want to explore the idea (after reading the KotSQ Story Hour, who wouldn't?) I would never force a player to do so.

The trial idea actually fits into what was already coming for him in regard to the "check up" I mentioned. This just compounds it. I was going to have him be the judge and have events of his life be brought forth at the hands of others. They would be slightly twisted and he might not recognize them at first.

This just changed my plans somewhat.

 

[Lela]

No

I didn`t see he did something evil or unrighteouss.
Ok they want to break in a room, for what?
To ask somebody for Help!
Or to put it flat to ask a good Elf goddess to help them to get a chance to rescue a good elven women of her faith out of an orcish stronghold!
Soory I think the clerk need a refreshment of the priorities.
So like cleaning the sanitarie room the next hundred years or such?

Tyr is LG and stood for the just law.
Not of the law in itself.
There is no evil intend, their is good intent.
And lawful didn`t meant following the written law but folowing his moral code principles, OTOH the true AL should be defined as LG but as rieghteousness.

The Pal himself used to be just a cleric. He based himself soley on Law and created his own code of conduct (which is actually written down). The player is the one who emphasized Law in the begginning and sees his god heavily in that light. He likes Law a lot and the only reason he didn't become a Paladin of Law (I was feeling weak when I offered that) was because he's facing off against a LE deity as the campaign's overall goal. And the character knew that.

But he's not a Pal of Law, he's one of Good. As such, I now agree that taking away his status outright is a little too much.

Here's my general advice... Never let the rules get in the way of telling a good story...

Lela, you have here a very dramatic situation here. Make use of it as a DM. Don't just strip paladinhood from the character nor just wrist-slap them. Weave story. Its a classic situation. What do you honor, a grieving friend who wants his wife back, or the letter of the law of your God{s}. Why its practically Greek tradgedy.

I'd start with putting the paladin on a quest for attonement, one that ends in the resurrection of the dead wife. Make it cost the PC, but provide rewards, and maybe another moral conundrum or two...

Noting that the Pal's wife and the wife in Nishrek are two comletely different people belonging to two completely different characters.

That said, I totally agree Mallus. I think it will be a little bigger than you intended but he had that other thing coming up anyway. The player, if not the character, knew it was coming but isn't liekly to recognize it this way when it comes as what it is.

Hey, I replied to this thread here.

Got Nem. See my reply there.

Let me get this straight: They are trying to get into see a GOOD goddess to help out their friend and companion.

But the GOOD goddes can't "fit them in her schedule" so the paladin suggests trying to break into the office so they can see her.

And you are thinking about stripping his abilities because of that?!?!?

Ridiculous! If I was the paladin character I would be livid. I would publicly chastise the goddess herself. How dare she criticize him for trying to help her own follower?! A follower the goddess apparently she "doesn't have time for".

I would call the so-called "goodness" of the goddess into question and demand that SHE be the one to atone and apologize to my paladin.

Fair enough.

You wouldn't know that her temple was set afire, her secretary's body taken over by a ghost, and her time was wasted telling the PCs about a spell they already had at their disposal.

That all happened after the Pal went to pray but she's still ticked about the whole thing. Regardless, the question isn't about her.

I take a different route with gods. They are preasent and seen but cannot interfear in the Prime. For example, should Grummish have known that the 13th level cleric of Eilistrea was on his personal plane he could, at no risk to self, have killed her outright. But since he missed it and the PCs brought her back safely he can't do anything but moan and send evil out to kill them. Which he will do.

And Tyr should also defend his paladin. The paladin was in the right and it is the goddess who should be repentant for her ridiculous request to punish the paladin.

As far breaking into the office that was absolutely the right choice. Just because lawful is a component of the paladin's alignment doesn't mean they must blindly follow all the rules simply because there are rules.

Breaking into the office of a Good deity may not be wrong IYO but it is wrong in Tyr's. And his is the only opinion that matters here.

That said, he is defending his Paladin and let Eilistrea play it up some in order to make the upcoming test more tempting. As I said before, it was already coming. It's just taking a different form now.

I must answer this short-sighted and typically mortal view with this from the Book of Job:

No more a'that Nem. We don't want this thread closed.

 

[Sejs]

No, I don't think you should nix the paladin status, or the cleric status.