Should I nix the PC's Paladin status?

[Lela]

Okay, in my current game I put a lot of pressure on Paladins. I've made them into a PrC that is very powerful (See Invisibility always active at first level, as an example). It's an exclusive club that takes a lot of RPing to enter into.

So, I've got a player who's taken the class. He's done well so far and has recently reached 5th level (in the PrC).

Well, to the point, one of the other player's wife was lost on Nishrek (FR, orc home). Being a good aligned drow in a world preparing for a great invasion by orcs she wasn't in a good spot. And the player was willing to do anything to get her back.

So, after a Commune spell with Eilistrea (sp?), who happens to also be the wife's goddess, to find our where she was, they needed a way to get there. They decided to go ask the goddess personally (and phisically) for help.

I should note here that they were in her main temple and had seen her walking around the place.

They show up at the secretary's desk (don't ask) and ask for an appointment. They're told she doesn't have any room in her schedule. This is where the Pal gets in trouble.

After asking the layout of the room and where the entrance to the goddess's chamber was, one of the other players tells the Pal to distract the secretary. I had thought he'd say no flat out.

He didn't. He went with Diplomacy checks to keep her attention on him. She was rather smitten by him already and was easily drawn into the conversation. It was at this point that the party's resident lockpick slipped by and tried to open the door. The Pal's player (PP for short) went to the bathroom. Hold Portal kept the door shut.

While the group was going through ideas one how to get around that the PP returned. He mentioned that he had got to thinking that this might not be good for his Pal status and switched tacks to trying to Diplomacy the secretary into working them in.

Well, I was wondering if he had realized soon enough what he was doing. I would add that he worships Tyr who is LG god of just Laws and his clerics sometimes act as lawyers when in civilized lands. Breaking and entering would easily qualify as breach of that law.

It would also be worth noting that as the player was in the bathroom he didn't know that the lock was unpickable when he returned. Whether that's a mark for or against him I'm unsure.

So, do you think I should nix his status or let it slide. Eilistrea (sp?) is all for having him thrown out as she's pissed at how the rest of the PCs entered her office as the Pal went to beg forgiveness of Tyr. She's currently demanding that Tyr drop him and throw him out of the church.

Which brings up another interesting point. He was a cleric who RPed the Law aspect of Tyr to the extreme. He ran into the rest of the party while trying to get compose a written copy of the Elven laws while wandering the forest. If he were to loose Pal status (which I'm leaning to right now) do you think he should also loose Cleric status?

What effect would Atonement have on these?

Thanks for your help in advance,

-Lela

Edit: Can't believe I made that mistake.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I'd say a strong warning, and possibly a minor quest for atonement, would be more than sufficient. Yes he slipped up a bit, but it wasn't a major violation, it was in a good cause, he did realize that he was in the wrong and try to fix things, and he's been (as you said) a good paladin up to that point.

His violation was worthy of a slap on the wrist and a notation in his permanent record, so to speak, but hardly worth being stripped of his abilities.

 

[Lela]

I'd say a strong warning, and possibly a minor quest for atonement, would be more than sufficient. Yes he slipped up a bit, but it wasn't a major violation, it was in a good cause, he did realize that he was in the wrong and try to fix things, and he's been (as you said) a good paladin up to that point.

His violation was worthy of a slap on the wrist and a notation in his permanent record, so to speak, but hardly worth being stripped of his abilities.

There's also an upcoming "check up" for new powers and a Celestial Companion. IYO, should that be impacted?

 

[Mouseferatu]

There's also an upcoming "check up" for new powers and a Celestial Companion. Should that be impacted?

That actually sounds like a good opportunity for the "slap on the wrist." Have an emmisary of Tyr (or whoever is performing the "check up") inform the paladin that, because of his minor violation, he must perform a small task to reaffirm his worthiness before he can gain the new powers or the companion. It shouldn't be anything too long, arduous, or difficult--you don't want to derail the campaign, after all. It should be just challenging enough that the character (and player) realize that Tyr is quite serious, and that the next time, he won't get off so easily.

Then, once the task is completed, he may gain his new powers and companion as per normal and--assuming he doesn't slip again--continues normally from there.

 

[Guilt Puppy]

The Pal's player (PP for short) went to the bathroom. Hold Portal kept the door shut.

Heh, that pair of sentences took me a while to put into context

(Edit: If you're the player of said Paladin, please don't read the below, just in case Lela uses any of my suggestions )

Anyway, I agree, a minor quest for atonement should be in order... It was a minor violation, but it was a violation. The player realized that, which means that the character realized that: It was a momentary lapse of good judgment, which is hardly worth stripping a Paladin of their Paladinhood (even a super-strict Paladin PrC). I don't care how strict you get, the characters are (probably) still mortals, and the players are certainly still mortals, and the gods are certainly aware that mortals can't be perfect.

It was an urgent task to save a life, so it's not like the Paladin deviated that much in intent -- definitely a forgivable digression. Compounded with the fact that he caught himself in the act and tried to shift over to more righteous tactics, this is definitely not a fallen paladin we're talking about It sounds like a strict PrC, so that Paladin is still going to have to do some serious work to retain his standing.

Perhaps Tyr could arrange for him to guard Eilistrea's Temple for a period of time, make it clear that this is his bound and just duty... Then send servants of Tyr -- clearly servants of Tyr, holy symbols everywhere -- come and demand entrance to the Temple, because they have found out that she has betrayed Tyr in some manner. If the Paladin refuses to allow them in, and fights to the death, he will be revived and his Paladinhood restored.

Note that, if you're a nice DM, either choice can be reworked to be the right one... If he lets them in, then his allegiance to Tyr is proven, yadda-yadda... Although you need to be less absolute in the original commandment if you want it to work regardless of player decision. If some unanticipated course of action splits the difference, even better! Of course, give no indication to the player that their choice is irrelevant: Make it seem like they made the one right choice, whatever they do, and they'll breathe a huge sigh of relief -- and since it was such a hard choice, they'll get how strict you want your Paladins to be to boot

And while that's harsh, I wouldn't suggest stripping them of their abilities until they are put through this test. If the thing with the PC's wife is as urgent as it sounds, let Tyr postpone his judgment until that is completed -- then strip the abilities and force the atonement. Do let the player know what's coming, and that they are using their powers on borrowed time (and further, that if they screw up during that time their chances for atonement are nixed.)

I think you can turn this little mess-up into a fun little brush with disaster, which is a lot more fun than "you lose your Paladinhood, go get a spell cast on you" or "you keep your Paladinhood, all that stuff about strictness was just flavor anyway."

 

[Lela]

Re: Re: Should I nix the PC's Paladin status?

Heh, that pair of sentences took me a while to put into context

I saw that when I was writting it. I thought I fixed it then. But let's just enjoy the thought.

Perhaps Tyr could arrange for him to guard Eilistrea's Temple for a period of time, make it clear that this is his bound and just duty... Then send servants of Tyr -- clearly servants of Tyr, holy symbols everywhere -- come and demand entrance to the Temple, because they have found out that she has betrayed Tyr in some manner. If the Paladin refuses to allow them in, and fights to the death, he will be revived and his Paladinhood restored.

I think this is a wonderful idea. Now they just have to cover the 300 miles back to the temple after their Plane Shift spell.

And while that's harsh, I wouldn't suggest stripping them of their abilities until they are put through this test. If the thing with the PC's wife is as urgent as it sounds, let Tyr postpone his judgment until that is completed -- then strip the abilities and force the atonement. Do let the player know what's coming, and that they are using their powers on borrowed time (and further, that if they screw up during that time their chances for atonement are nixed.)

As it happens, I've already done this. You should have seen the look on their faces after breaking into the office of a goddess to have her tell them that their cleric already could cast Plane Shift. Two of those, some encounters, a a couple Teleports later, they're back on the prime. And Grummish is realizing his missed oportunity.

I think you can turn this little mess-up into a fun little brush with disaster, which is a lot more fun than "you lose your Paladinhood, go get a spell cast on you" or "you keep your Paladinhood, all that stuff about strictness was just flavor anyway."

I agree. Though I think RPing a fallen Paladin would be fun too. I may have a god or two make some discreet offers for some fun.

I'm getting a trial idea running through my head right now too. Something aken to an arrest with a trial date set. While he's being held in some form of makeshift cell (he happens to be an elf reincarnated into a centar) we could run the whole escape and refuse justice confirming the fall from grace along with some good oldfashoned devil temptation.

This would be run in a city they'll be passing through where justice is becoming corrupted. Hopefully his PC won't know that but the rest of the party will. It'll give them motive to come rescue him. He should then rufuse to leave without proof (or something like that).

How does that sound to everyone?

Edit: Just to keep people from getting confused, as a centaur, he's too heavy to teleport.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Wow Lela. You are really hard on Paladins.

After reading what he did, it seems to me like a minor violation of the lawful aspect of the Paladin's alignment. The paladin was still trying to forward a good goal in a difficult situation.

I hope you let the Paladin atone and continue being a Paladin. He wasn't acting in an evil manner, just unlawfully.

 

[Lela]

Re: Re

Wow Lela. You are really hard on Paladins.

Thanks! I try.

After reading what he did, it seems to me like a minor violation of the lawful aspect of the Paladin's alignment. The paladin was still trying to forward a good goal in a difficult situation.

I hope you let the Paladin atone and continue being a Paladin. He wasn't acting in an evil manner, just unlawfully.

To me a Paladin is the epitomy of both Law and Good. I emphasize Good over Law and go more with their deity's ideals and views when there's an issue.

In this case, he's a Paladin of Tyr, god of Just Laws. While many FR books are biased against him, I find him to be a great example of what a Paladin should be. He wasn't just breaking into a theifs house here. He was breaking into the inner sanctom of a Good goddess who had offered him shelter but required her privacy.

On the other hand, he did think better of it and tried to change tactics.

But, IC, the ninja had already attempted to pick the lock while he was watching and helping. OoC and IC, he knew everything that was coming and went along with it anyway.

Edit: To pull it back to context, would Tyr aprove of any of that? Would Tyr find it worthy of dismissal? Would Eilistrea's petition to Tyr for his dimissial have any effect? Should the player be worried?

I'm sure you can see why I might be hard on him. Might being the opritive word of course.

 

[Belen]

Hmm...I think you are being a bit tough on the Paladin class, which takes a lot of flak. It can be difficult at best to find someone who will play that class. Try to put his actions in this context: "A Kingdom has a set of laws that stated that all followers of a certain religion must wear a mark on their coat or face execution. While the Paladin is aware of this law, he still acts to save a child from execution after the child loses his public mark."

Would the Paladin lose his status? It sounds as if you would force the Paladin to lose his status for this act, but the same Paladin would also lose his status for not helping the child as allowing a child to be executed would be an evil act.

A Paladin should first be good in all aspects, but at the same time, follow the laws to do good; however, standing by and allowing a law to harm the innocent is evil. It's a catch 22.

It also sounds like you as a GM wish to explore the status of fallen Paladin, but you should never force a player onto that road. Heck, if I felt that the GM forced me to lose my Paladin status then I would get the character killed off and make a new one. No sense in playing if it will not be fun.

If your player wants to explore such issues, then great, but I could see where a GM could alienate a person by being arbitrary and forcing someone to play a certain way because of their own desires or beliefs.

Dave

 

[Kyramus]

After asking the layout of the room and where the entrance to the goddess's chamber was, one of the other players tells the Pal to distract the secretary. I had thought he'd say no flat out.

He didn't. He went with Diplomacy checks to keep her attention on him. She was rather smitten by him already and was easily drawn into the conversation. It was at this point that the party's resident lockpick slipped by and tried to open the door. The Pal's player (PP for short) went to the bathroom. Hold Portal kept the door shut.

Diplomacy checks to distract. Did he know what the others were going to do? Did he know that they were trying to open the door to the goddess' chamber?

While the group was going through ideas one how to get around that the PP returned. He mentioned that he had got to thinking that this might not be good for his Pal status and switched tacks to trying to Diplomacy the secretary into working them in.

Well, I was wondering if he had realized soon enough what he was doing. I would add that he worships Tyr who is LG god of just Laws and his clerics sometimes act as lawyers when in civilized lands. Breaking and entering would easily qualify as breach of that law.

It would also be worth noting that as the player was in the bathroom he didn't know that the lock was unpickable when he returned. Whether that's a mark for or against him I'm unsure.

So, do you think I should nix his status or let it slide. Eilistrea (sp?) is all for having him thrown out as she's pissed at how the rest of the PCs entered her office as the Pal went to beg forgiveness of Tyr. She's currently demanding that Tyr drop him and throw him out of the church.

Which brings up another interesting point. He was a cleric who RPed the Law aspect of Tyr to the extreme. He ran into the rest of the party while trying to get compose a written copy of the Elven laws while wandering the forest. If he were to loose Pal status (which I'm leaning to right now) do you think he should also loose Cleric status?

The change of heart helps show that he wanted to try to get the secretary to help them get an audience. That is not an evil act, nor is it against the laws.

Ellistrea would probably be more miffed at the other players than at the paladin.
Also the paladin didn't know about the lock pick attempt, that's in his favor.

Conclusion: If he knew what the others were up to to begin with, that's where the minor infraction would be. He willingly distracted the secretary which is duplicity to cover a crime that was in progress. That would be a slap to the wrist, possibly more than a minor slap. Not enough to loose his paladin hood, but possibly enough for Tyr to show his disfavor and give him the flu for a week or so, followed by an atonement for a small task that requires the paladin to uphold the law.