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Should I nix the PC's Paladin status?
- Thread starter Lela
- Start date
One counterexample -- though I agree with most people, including Lela, that the paladin shouldn't permanently lose his powers or anything like that, but should get a warning or penance-style task, without losing his powers:
If you argue against taking away people's powers because they only control one person and it would ruin the game, that leads to a couple of potential problems. This is the same line of reasoning that results in DMs never killing PCs, and players making stupid decisions and effectively holding their PCs hostage because they know the DM won't kill them.
I support reasonable challenges to the paladin on a moral basis, just like I support challenges to every cleric's faith (and in game, I use this to balance the otherwise overpowered cleric). I don't put paladins in no-win situations, and the usual understanding is that, if the player and his paladin think hard about their choice, whatever they do will be good enough to keep their deity's love and favor. But I will without hesitation smack down (in the form of penitential duties, temporary loss of some powers, and EVENTUALLY falling from grace) a PC who I don't feel is taking his paladinhood seriously (provided that I'm running a roleplaying-strong game).
It all depends on the game. If you run hack & slash for everyone else but give the paladin moral issues, that's no fun. You've got to be fair -- which means moral issues for everyone.
Get the monk and the bard arguing over criminals convicted by an outdated legal system! Watch the party try to bypass an organized bureacracy. See if the bard starts getting too lawful or the monk loses his disciplined edge. Remind the barbarian that the primal power that makes him deadly in combat also makes it really unlikely that he'd hold his temper while women from his home village were being held in chains (as slaves in a law-abiding society).
In other words, if you have mature adult players, make it a complex game.
(Not saying this to Lela, by the way -- it sounds as though she's doing a good job on this already)
-Tacky
If you argue against taking away people's powers because they only control one person and it would ruin the game, that leads to a couple of potential problems. This is the same line of reasoning that results in DMs never killing PCs, and players making stupid decisions and effectively holding their PCs hostage because they know the DM won't kill them.
I support reasonable challenges to the paladin on a moral basis, just like I support challenges to every cleric's faith (and in game, I use this to balance the otherwise overpowered cleric). I don't put paladins in no-win situations, and the usual understanding is that, if the player and his paladin think hard about their choice, whatever they do will be good enough to keep their deity's love and favor. But I will without hesitation smack down (in the form of penitential duties, temporary loss of some powers, and EVENTUALLY falling from grace) a PC who I don't feel is taking his paladinhood seriously (provided that I'm running a roleplaying-strong game).
It all depends on the game. If you run hack & slash for everyone else but give the paladin moral issues, that's no fun. You've got to be fair -- which means moral issues for everyone.
Get the monk and the bard arguing over criminals convicted by an outdated legal system! Watch the party try to bypass an organized bureacracy. See if the bard starts getting too lawful or the monk loses his disciplined edge. Remind the barbarian that the primal power that makes him deadly in combat also makes it really unlikely that he'd hold his temper while women from his home village were being held in chains (as slaves in a law-abiding society).
In other words, if you have mature adult players, make it a complex game.
(Not saying this to Lela, by the way -- it sounds as though she's doing a good job on this already)
-Tacky
Neverwinter Knight
First Post
Dragonblade said:Well the episode thats from is the one where the crew visit this paradise world and Wesley Crusher inadvertantly breaks the law by accidentally breaking a glass window and killing some plants.
A crime which is punishable by death. The crew is unable to transport Wesley away because the planet is protected by this alien entity which is almost godlike in its power.
Picard gives this great speech about how laws are nice and all but the purpose of a law is to provide justice. So when you have laws that are absolute then no justice is possible and the whole point of having such laws should be called into question.
The god entity thinks Picard is right so Wesley is allowed to leave unharmed.
Great Episode!
I kept hoping that they'd finally blow damn Wesley's head off throughout the episode and was then kind of disappointed...
Last edited:
Lela
First Post
Okay, a while ago someone asked about my PrC and it's power levels. Sorry it took me so long.
Prestige Class (Custom)
Requirements:
Alignment: Lawful Good
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Diplomacy: 5 ranks
Feats: Extra Turning or Two Weapon spicific feats (must both be for the same weapon)
Special: The character must have proformed a great service to advance the purposes of the deity to which he seeks to become a Paladin. He must also gain the FULL approval of the deity's church.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Light, Medium, and Heavy Armors; Shields; all Simple and Martial Weapons.
1st: Detect Evil; Deity Granted Power (Lower); Divine Health; Divine Spell Use
2nd: Divine Grace; Smite Evil
3rd: Turn Undead
5th: Celestial Companion (DotF); Deity Granted Power (Medium); Smite Evil 2/day
6th: Lay on hands (Character Level times Charisma Mod)
8th: Smite Evil 3/day
10th: True Connection
Deity Granted Power: Each deity will choose the abilities they give their Paladin. These abilities will emphasize both the philosophy and shpere of influance the deity has. For instance, a deity of magic might grant SR. These powers scale with levels (Lower, Medium, True Connection). The DM may choose to keep the powers secret from the player for flavor reasons.
In Tyr's case I'm going with See Invisibility always active (Lower, 1st), automatic saving throw vs. all Illusion spells (Medium, 5th), and True Seeing always active or at will (True Connection, 10th).
[Actually, this aspect of Tyr's Paladins is influanced by Torm who values Truth above all else. As Tyr's general, Torm was asked to take over most of the Paladin orders. Tyr still answers prayers and does what he always did. Torm just takes a more hands on approach to the high warriors of the faith. This works out because, IMC, the Triad (Tyr, Torm, and Illmater) usually share everything, including temples. Some are starting to believe they are simply different aspects of the same being. These groups are dubbed heretics by the church.]
[And no, the general worshipers are, as a whole, unaware of Torm's duties towards the Paladins of Tyr. To be honest, the general worshipers, as a whole, aren't too knowlagable about the faith anyway. The Paladins do know; see below*.]
Lay on Hands and Smite Evil are per character level not Paladin level. Spells as Holy Liborator (DotF) with substitutions for Law spells where needed. Celestial Companion the same.
*Because of the closeness of the Triad, Paladins draw different aspects of their power from each deity. Torm handles combat power, Tyr handles protection (Divine Grace) and companionship (Celestial Companion), while Illmayter deals with healing (Lay on Hands, etc.). As an extention of this, Clerics who take the Paladin PrC may rechoose their domains and are allowed to utilize any domain from Tyr, Torm, or Illmayter.
The rest should be self-explanitory.
Prestige Class (Custom)
Requirements:
Alignment: Lawful Good
Base Attack Bonus: +3
Diplomacy: 5 ranks
Feats: Extra Turning or Two Weapon spicific feats (must both be for the same weapon)
Special: The character must have proformed a great service to advance the purposes of the deity to which he seeks to become a Paladin. He must also gain the FULL approval of the deity's church.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Light, Medium, and Heavy Armors; Shields; all Simple and Martial Weapons.
1st: Detect Evil; Deity Granted Power (Lower); Divine Health; Divine Spell Use
2nd: Divine Grace; Smite Evil
3rd: Turn Undead
5th: Celestial Companion (DotF); Deity Granted Power (Medium); Smite Evil 2/day
6th: Lay on hands (Character Level times Charisma Mod)
8th: Smite Evil 3/day
10th: True Connection
Deity Granted Power: Each deity will choose the abilities they give their Paladin. These abilities will emphasize both the philosophy and shpere of influance the deity has. For instance, a deity of magic might grant SR. These powers scale with levels (Lower, Medium, True Connection). The DM may choose to keep the powers secret from the player for flavor reasons.
In Tyr's case I'm going with See Invisibility always active (Lower, 1st), automatic saving throw vs. all Illusion spells (Medium, 5th), and True Seeing always active or at will (True Connection, 10th).
[Actually, this aspect of Tyr's Paladins is influanced by Torm who values Truth above all else. As Tyr's general, Torm was asked to take over most of the Paladin orders. Tyr still answers prayers and does what he always did. Torm just takes a more hands on approach to the high warriors of the faith. This works out because, IMC, the Triad (Tyr, Torm, and Illmater) usually share everything, including temples. Some are starting to believe they are simply different aspects of the same being. These groups are dubbed heretics by the church.]
[And no, the general worshipers are, as a whole, unaware of Torm's duties towards the Paladins of Tyr. To be honest, the general worshipers, as a whole, aren't too knowlagable about the faith anyway. The Paladins do know; see below*.]
Lay on Hands and Smite Evil are per character level not Paladin level. Spells as Holy Liborator (DotF) with substitutions for Law spells where needed. Celestial Companion the same.
*Because of the closeness of the Triad, Paladins draw different aspects of their power from each deity. Torm handles combat power, Tyr handles protection (Divine Grace) and companionship (Celestial Companion), while Illmayter deals with healing (Lay on Hands, etc.). As an extention of this, Clerics who take the Paladin PrC may rechoose their domains and are allowed to utilize any domain from Tyr, Torm, or Illmayter.
The rest should be self-explanitory.
Lela
First Post
Xarlen said:I see you've put a lot of thought into this.
It was just an idea that developed. When I actually had to make it I flipped open the PHB and started to pick and choose. Wasn't too hard.
The tricky part came when I had to program it into the Excel character generator I use.
Xarlen said:
I admit part of it was wanting the PCs to figure out how to save her on their own. While I can appreciate that this was a method of doing so that I had left open to them (by accident, I assure you), yadda, yadda. You see, sometimes I question how mortals ever get anything done if they constantly have to run and ask a god/dess about it. This was why it was hard to get in, not why she was mad.
The reason for her anger is a bit more complicated and would require a lengthy explanation (I don't have time for it now and don't know if I'll ever get to it honestly). Sufice to say that the culmination of events that finally got them in the office was very distructive. She was mad at the situation and, chaos being what it is (not logical) took out much of it on the paladin (who should know better).
As an added note, she doesn't like stupidity. As she saw it, the group Communed with her and then came to tell her what they found out while doing so. And no one had bothered looking at their spell lists before coming to see her. She just ended up telling them that Plane Shift was a spell castable by the party cleric.
If that doesn't help Xarlen, I can tell you that the players thought her anger was completely justified (ironic choice of words there); maybe even toned down from what it should have been.
Hope that helps,
I still don't get what the planeshift was all about. They're on her plane, right? What else is there to shift about?
And, I mean, you put a lot of work via the Gods. I like to see people do things with FR gods. I like FR gods.
And, she could've just poked them and said 'Deal with it, don't lean on me'. But then again, I kinda don't agree with meeting and talking to gods, but that's just me.
And, I mean, you put a lot of work via the Gods. I like to see people do things with FR gods. I like FR gods.
And, she could've just poked them and said 'Deal with it, don't lean on me'. But then again, I kinda don't agree with meeting and talking to gods, but that's just me.
Lela
First Post
No, they were on the prime. It was her head temple near the border between the elven forest and the blasted lands (ruled by Grummish's forces) and is considered a gathering place for all good aligned drow and part-drow. It is also a fortress designed to hold back the invasions of goblins and orcs.
There had been a meeting of the gods earlier that day and they had seen and heard Her. It was for story puposses and I hadn't expected them to do anything with it.
The wife had been lost in Nishrek and the Plane Shift was to get there and get her back. As I said, the group never actually looked at their spell list.
There had been a meeting of the gods earlier that day and they had seen and heard Her. It was for story puposses and I hadn't expected them to do anything with it.
The wife had been lost in Nishrek and the Plane Shift was to get there and get her back. As I said, the group never actually looked at their spell list.
mythago
Hero
There is a big difference between giving the paladin role-playing dilemmas, and screwing with the paladin.
Some of that is perception. Some of it, though, is real. You don't have to hunt through the boards very much to find a lot of posts along the lines of "Do such-and-such, haha, that will really screw with the paladins in your group!"
Really, you can pull difficult choices out on any PC with a strong moral code. (How is your CG priest going to react when allowing an individual's freedom leads to a terrible result?) Yes, paladins have a tougher row to hoe than many others--but that shouldn't be an excuse to make the the GM's whipping boy.
Some of that is perception. Some of it, though, is real. You don't have to hunt through the boards very much to find a lot of posts along the lines of "Do such-and-such, haha, that will really screw with the paladins in your group!"
Really, you can pull difficult choices out on any PC with a strong moral code. (How is your CG priest going to react when allowing an individual's freedom leads to a terrible result?) Yes, paladins have a tougher row to hoe than many others--but that shouldn't be an excuse to make the the GM's whipping boy.
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