D&D 5E (2014) Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Micah Sweet]

50 is better at level 50.


If it's not powerful enough, the fantasy is not met.
If the fantasy isn't met, it is not covered.

That's against why all the new martial subclasses are overtly magical and why the barbarian is being made overtly supernatural...

Because people won't allow mundane to be as effective as at least real life.

Then the same people openly lament "Why is everything so magical? I can't play a hero without magic!"

I want the mundane in games to be as effective as the mundane in real life. Designers often don't want to do the research and design work to make that happen though, and their corporate masters don't want to pay them to do it. Far easier just to make up the effect you want and slap a "magic" label on it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Niche means unpopular. But I keep forgetting it's all about you.

I have never cared about what's popular, true. And it is possible to include multiple methods of resolution, or create different games with different methods. There's no rule that any designer has to follow the winds of public opinion and remove or phase out less popular styles.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A lot of this discussion is about people who should be playing 4e or Rolemaster complaining that 5e isn't those games.

I understand that if you're mostly happy with 5e but feel that it could use some small tweaks, then it might make sense contemplating it. But to me it seems that there are a lot of people who simply disagree with the core concepts of the game, so at that point it would be just wisest to let it go and find a game that better suits your tastes.

My players like 5e, and the majority of the community I engage with does too. I'd rather change it to something more suited to my tastes (which I've largely done through my houserules and the use of Level Up) than abandon it and have nothing to play and no one to talk to about it.

5e is a decent base for a system to start on. I just don't like the official take on it, don't like the company publishing the official take, and like it less every time I hear more about what they're doing.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Goading is mind control because it FORCES a specific course of action and penalty for not engaging in it. Over words which have no force to do any of that if they are mundane. There are no mundane words you or any fighter can come up with that would make me attack you or penalize me for not doing so. I control me. To overcome that you would need magic of some kind.

Goading happens in reality at bars across the world every weekend. It's great that you have enough control over your emotions that it wouldn't work on you. But let me tell you my ED is full of the susceptible and prideful every weekend.

 

[Muh]

I think that number should be more like 5hp

What would be the point of having that limit be 5hp? That's less than what a rogue would do in damage with a standard attack at that level.

It would be essentially like having a special ability that doesn't do anything.

 

[Minigiant]

A lot of this discussion is about people who should be playing 4e or Rolemaster complaining that 5e isn't those games.

Why?

Again a lot of what is requested is just tweaks of existing mundane stuff. A new feat, a new subclass, a new mane er, a new class feature.

It's just a lot of "I'm not against you having new stuff, you just can't have new stuff I won't use.".

 

[Vaalingrade]

Why?

Because what the game really needs is people to be run out of it and from discussion on improving it. Especially during an open playtest period where we're being directly solicited for feedback.

 

[Remathilis]

Goading is mind control because it FORCES a specific course of action and penalty for not engaging in it. Over words which have no force to do any of that if they are mundane. There are no mundane words you or any fighter can come up with that would make me attack you or penalize me for not doing so. I control me. To overcome that you would need magic of some kind.

This is a little more nuanced area of debate. First, it depends on how the taunt ability is framed. If the fighter is imposing disadvantage to attack other targets but him, I don't view that as mind control. I can still target a different foe if I want to, I'm just penalized if I do. No agency is lost. Now if the taunt forces me to attack on them, that costs the player agency. I'm less ok with that, but again it depends on what the parameters are. If I am a wizard and I'm goaded into attacking a fighter, there is a world of difference between "ok, I will fireball the fighter and fling all my firebolts at him" vs. "I will brazenly run up into melee and wack at him with my staff!" Even if forced to attack only the fighter, I still have a choice in how.

I'm willing to give some leeway though because a lot of D&D assumes mundane abilities can override player agency. Perception and insight checks, saves vs fear or horror, social/charisma skills, etc. I'm as willing to accept my character can be goaded into having disadvantage vs other foes as I am to being tripped or tricked with dirty fighting. If agency can never be revoked, then nothing can ever impede a PC.

 

[Oofta]

Goading happens in reality at bars across the world every weekend. It's great that you have enough control over your emotions that it wouldn't work on you. But let me tell you my ED is full of the susceptible and prideful every weekend.

The problem isn't that goading should work under some circumstances. Want to goad an NPC in a bar? Give me an intimidation check.

It's supernatural if it works, or has a decent chance to work, under any and all situations. Want to goad an ooze? Good luck with that unless it's a supernatural ability. Which is the problem I had with 4E fighters until I just accepted that all fighters were supernatural in that edition.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The problem isn't that goading should work under some circumstances. Want to goad an NPC in a bar? Give me an intimidation check.

It's supernatural if it works, or has a decent chance to work, under any and all situations. Want to goad an ooze? Good luck with that unless it's a supernatural ability. Which is the problem I had with 4E fighters until I just accepted that all fighters were supernatural in that edition.

Yup. If a group of bandits firing at a PC have to leave defensible positions to attack them in melee because the PC activated an ability, that ability better be supernatural in nature.