D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Remathilis]

Or not. It would be relatively easy to balance out spellcasters if you really wanted to. Here, I'll show you. Two changes.

1. No cantrips. Every spell requires a slot, period. That way, martials really are not just better in combat, but a LOT better in combat. It also means that the utility cantrips also require those precious resources. Spellcasters still get the "Gee, whiz!" spells, but they requires resources and planning.

2. All spells go last in the round, and any caster hit during a round doesn't get the spell off. I know! That would massively balance the game. Sure you could tinker with this a little. You could have casters get a save (with disadvantage if there's a lot of damage, etc.). Or you could have a select group of spells that don't make you go last (like the "Power Word" spells). Tinker at the edges. But it would again mean that spellcasting is a specific choice in combat.

Would this radically reshape the game as we know it? Yes. Would a lot of people be howling? Certainly.

Would it restore balance in the Force? I think so.

It doesn't fix the biggest disparity in mundane and magic; out of combat magic.

A fighter and a wizard are pretty matched in combat. It's out of combat when a wizard can go invisible, teleport across Chasms, or charm a guard when the mundanes have no match. Returning to the example, Luke and Han could probably have slaughtered the same number of ewoks, but only one of them is telekinetically lifting Threepio to make him look like a god and thus forcing them to let the heroes go.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I have to say that I have not seen a big problem to level 10. And I fully realize things change later…

But I also find it interesting that Gygax spoke of magic users being weak at low levels while becoming “the most fearsome characters of all” at higher ones.

I do think mechanics for interrupting spells as they are being cast (not just concentrated on) would balance higher levels to an extent and require warriors to be up front and take hits.

In that world no one would ask as much about the magic and mundane so much. Teamwork would just be a fact. Are you a linebacker or a receiver? And also so what?

Much of this discussions stems from a he game wanting to be exciting every round/turn. Fire and forget over and over without consequence.

You know who used to be able to do that? Warriors.

I hope folks find the magic they are looking for. As for me, I am not looking for magic in fighters per se but a little in eldritch knights, some in paladins and other places outside of the fighter (tm) chassis. If fighter subclasses cover it all, why even have other classes that use weapons. In fact, which fighters are mundane?

Champions and battlemasters? Making warriors magical was already accomplished with rune knights etc. and don’t forget fears. It’s hard to have a fighter be mundane anymore! Do we need to make the base class lean into that more? So all fighters MUST be magical? Leave some space for those of us that still like some medieval fantasy.

 

[Remathilis]

Read the Dresden files.

The wizards and vampires are powerful but hire mundanes to do all the shooting and sneaking.

Because they can't shoot and sneak or because it's more convenient to hire mundanes to do it?

I'll admit ignorance on the series. What are the things that wizards can't do that only mundanes can?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

It doesn't fix the biggest disparity in mundane and magic; out of combat magic.

A fighter and a wizard are pretty matched in combat. It's out of combat when a wizard can go invisible, teleport across Chasms, or charm a guard when the mundanes have no match. Returning to the example, Luke and Han could probably have slaughtered the same number of ewoks, but only one of them is telekinetically lifting Threepio to make him look like a god and thus forcing them to let the heroes go.

Well, it starts to address it. Why? Because most D&D games have a decent amount of combat. And the real issue isn't that wizards can do cool utility things, after all. That just leaves them as great complementary characters!

It's that wizards can do cool utility things, and they can also be almost the equal of martials in combat. It's been a powersurge ever since OD&D, and has just gotten worse. Sure, they (usually) don't get extra attacks per se, but they do get scaling cantrips.

I'm sure that there are other fixes you can throw in to preserve certain niches (such as removing expertise from Bards), but the primary issue isn't that martials are too weak, it's that spellcasters have encroached on the territory of martials (at-will cantrips, scaling damage cantrips, increased hit points, ability to get spells off in combat, etc.) without losing any of their other abilities.

And not to put too fine a point on this- but D&D isn't Star Wars. I neither need, nor want, Ewoks in my D&D. Yub nub, eee chop yub nub.

 

[Staffan]

Read the Dresden files.

The wizards and vampires are powerful but hire mundanes to do all the shooting and sneaking.

The main thing mortals in Dresden have are numbers (the RPG gives them a significant edge in Refresh, or FATE points per session, but that's a game construct and not narrative). When it comes to good shooting, you want someone like Jared Kincaid who's pretty magical himself, even if he doesn't cast spells.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Name one thing, be it in D&D, Star Wars, or Harry Potter, that the mundane character can do that the magical one cannot. One thing. Or perhaps a piece of equipment that is unusable to magical characters. They don't exist in any meaningful way. Wizards can drive cars. A Jedi can wear beskar. A bladesinger is a match for a warrior in a duel.

DnD's pseudo-medieval setting might be the wrong place to implement it exactly but magic and tech being mutually incompatable is a fairly common trope in media, in The Rivers of London book series the modern day protagonist learning magic has to be careful about his casting as he'll reduce the circuitry of any nearby tech with a current running through it when he does so to powder with even small uses of magic and repeatedly looses his phone this way.

magic items would be the nearest equivilant i can see, it might make a player think twice about their desire to play a wizard when they learn they can't use that cloak of protection at all or will suffer a penalty to their casting if they do wear it, if being a jedi who used the force interfered with their ability to use blasters and lightsabers or the responsiveness of their ship Han and Chewie would be much Much more important contributiors to the team.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Or it can let the muggles excell at muggle stuff in ways a wizard or Jedi can replicate with the same time and XP.

Or have muggle only equipment.

How does that make sense?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Name one thing, be it in D&D, Star Wars, or Harry Potter, that the mundane character can do that the magical one cannot. One thing. Or perhaps a piece of equipment that is unusable to magical characters. They don't exist in any meaningful way. Wizards can drive cars. A Jedi can wear beskar. A bladesinger is a match for a warrior in a duel.

This is the problem, magical characters aren't forced to just be magical because they are locked out of mundane abilities. Even in D&D there is a martial equivalent for each caster class. The reverse is never true until you give the mundanes magical abilities, be it spells, supernatural powers, or magic items.

Yes, usually metaphysically the magic user is mundane + magic, and thus can in theory learn any mundane capability that pure mundanes could. But I don't think this is at all a problem in a game with limited character building resources. Yes, the magic user can use some of their build resources towards mundane capabilities, but that is less resources towards magic then. Now it is possible that the character building is not balanced and magic capabilities are too powerful for their cost, but that is another matter.

 

[Lucas Yew]

Whatever happens, in HERO-speak, I want my weapon wielding classes to be built on roughly equal Character Point (CP) totals AND not too much overshadowed Active Points (AP, a.k.a. power ceiling) per ability.

 

[Voadam]

DnD's pseudo-medieval setting might be the wrong place to implement it exactly but magic and tech being mutually incompatable is a fairly common trope in media, in The Rivers of London book series the modern day protagonist learning magic has to be careful about his casting as he'll reduce the circuitry of any nearby tech with a current running through it when he does so to powder with even small uses of magic and repeatedly looses his phone this way.

Dias Ex Machina Games has their post apocalyptic Amethyst setting which has a setup of tech versus magic zone stuff as well I believe. Not the normal D&D setting but available in D&D rules for 3.5, Pathfinder 1e, 4e, and 5e.