Should the keen quality even exist?

[FreeTheSlaves]

The only time they are worth taking is when you've got some other ability that applies on a critical.

Geoff.

Assuming that confirmations are successful 1/2 of the time and that keen improves damage by about 10%; i.e. these two combine to increase damage by about 5%, the average damage output has to be over 21 points to make keen better than an extra +1 enhancement.

****

e.g.

Two equal fighters, one with greatsword+2 & the other a +1 keen

2d6+16 (damage from all sources), crit 19+, *2
23*1.05=24.15

2d6+15 (damage from all sources), crit 17+, *2
22*1.1=24.2

****

The average damage (23.1) was the same at a base +13 damage before magic weapon enhancement was included. A base +14 damage is really difficult to obtain with one handed weapons before str is boosted to about 30; power attack & str*1.5 allows 2handers to achieve this much earlier.

Hmm, the above did not take into consideration the extra +1 to hit from the +2 weapon, I'll factor that in now.

****

Two equal fighters, one with greatsword+2 & the other a +1 keen, with a +1 weapon they both will hit 50% of the time & so the +2 weapon will hit 55% of the time. I can't be bothered recalculating the critical confirmation as it is too miniscule.

2d6+16 (damage from all sources), crit 19+, *2
0.55*(23*1.05)=13.2825

2d6+15 (damage from all sources), crit 17+, *2
0.50*(22*1.1)=12.1

****

I don't know how to easily work out where the keen beats the extra enhancement but I'd guess it is about at 24pts+. Something to bear in mind though is that enhancement caps at +5 & keen can then be used to further boost damage output, and the greater the average damage the better the mileage from keen.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

There is actually a feat from Complete Warrior iirc, Power Critical that does exactly this and I think has lower requirements than IC.

I'd let them stack; confirmation rolls are too infrequent to bog the game down & the keen/imp crit synergy house rule is a very weak powerplay.

 

[RandomPrecision]

I see what you're getting at but this in not an accurate comparison, the full attack with sneak attact is very situational and difficult to pull off, striking with a keen rapier is not.

I've been playing a rapier rogue in a campaign that I've been in lately, and I know I get sneak attacks far more often than critical hits (except that, despite my complete disbelief in luck and karma and similar things, I really am a poor roller - I fought a zombie for maybe 20 rounds without dealing any more than 1 damage, and getting several critical miss threats, one of which ended up destroying my rapier - I finally beat the zombie, but largely because the zombie, attacking unarmed, also got a critical miss, which the DM decided caused him to fall over; I hit the prone zombie and destroyed it).

No one wants to get the shaft, I am never in favour of ripping away a power without due compensation because imho balance is very important; however if some aspect of the game is indeed getting tedious it must be rectified before it impacts on the fun of the game.

I still don't think Imp. Crit. and Keen make rapier fighting tedious. If someone has a problem with rolling a threat die when applicable, roll 2d20 to attack. Even if you don't have distinct dice, you could roll one in each hand, specifying that left is attack and right is threat, or vice-versa. That eliminates any additional time-consuming properties of high threat range combat, but I don't think much time is wasted anyway. Improved Critical and Keen together don't make combat any longer than both of them combined.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I just let them stack. Since vorpal only insta-kills on a natural 20 it isn't an issue.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I still don't think Imp. Crit. and Keen make rapier fighting tedious. If someone has a problem with rolling a threat die when applicable, roll 2d20 to attack.

I don't think it is the person that is rolling the dice that WotC thinks will finding it tedious - it is the 4 other people waiting for their turn to come up.

 

[jaker2003]

hey, some armor qualities just cost money because they don't warrant a whole enhancement bonus . . . anyone else think we should do the same for keen?

 

[Aust Diamondew]

That always confused me how some enhancements are an actual +X bonus and some just cost extra GP.

 

[Storyteller01]

Kind of off-topic

So what if this option came in magical and nonmagical variants? Japanese legends have blades so sharp that leaves actaually avoided the egde (very short version of the story, but it works ).

I'm thinking: make it a craftable ability, similar to Masterwork, jagged, differing metals, etc.. Make it cost MUCH more, but it doesn't go away when the blade is enchanted.

While it isn't much as a magical bonus, it would be considered the pinnacle of nonmagical forging (or close to it). The point where mundane crosses over into true magic, so to speak.

 

[Staffan]

That always confused me how some enhancements are an actual +X bonus and some just cost extra GP.

In 3.0, they were +x bonuses. Then someone decided that since they were essentially equal to other items added onto the armor (e.g. the silent moves ability is basically the same as a pair of boots of elvenkind), they should have fixed costs just like those items (modified by +50% for being second abilities added to an existing slot-item).

This is one change I do agree with.

 

[jaker2003]

So what if this option came in magical and nonmagical variants? Japanese legends have blades so sharp that leaves actaually avoided the egde (very short version of the story, but it works ).

I'm thinking: make it a craftable ability, similar to Masterwork, jagged, differing metals, etc.. Make it cost MUCH more, but it doesn't go away when the blade is enchanted.

While it isn't much as a magical bonus, it would be considered the pinnacle of nonmagical forging (or close to it). The point where mundane crosses over into true magic, so to speak.

I have a class for you: Mastersmith (I found this online and tweaked it to fit my campaign)