Should you be able to dodge a fireball by readying an action?

[Geron Raveneye]

The principal problem with this is that Fireball is an instantaneous spell, which means it explodes at the destined point as soon as the spell is cast. The second problem is that, even though you can ready a Move action with the trigger "Wizard casts Fireball in my direction", as long as you don't get outside of his reach, it won't really do you much good, since there is no component in the Fireball spell that is influenced by a target moving. The wizard doesn't need to make a ranged touch attack, the destination of the fireball's explosion is set on the count of the wizard, which comes after your move, and there is no bonus to Reflex saves associated with simply "moving around". Also, you are not really interrupting his casting, and as long as you don't move behind cover, you don't interrupt his line of sight either, so he can easily set his fireball so it explodes slightly ahead of you, making you ride into it instead of aiming it exactly on your position. I'm pretty sure I'd hear that argument if I turned the table as DM and enabled a riding opponent to "dodge" the PC's fireball with a readied action. And as Felnar and Delta already mentioned, it would set a bad precedent for scenes with enemy archers..."I ready a move action for when that guy shoots, to move out of the way of the arrow."

The underlying problem is the round-based combat/movement system and the fact that some spells don't have to be aimed by a die roll.

 

[Jolly Giant]

Maybe +2 on saving throw or something is appropriate.

Yeah, that's what how I would've handled it. I'd probably go for a +4 bonus, though.

 

[DragonLancer]

So, in your game, would it be possible to react to where a fireball is headed and move out of the way? Maybe still require a reflex save, but give the person evasion for the round?

No. Thats what your reflex save represents.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

And as Felnar and Delta already mentioned, it would set a bad precedent for scenes with enemy archers..."I ready a move action for when that guy shoots, to move out of the way of the arrow."

Yeah but if you are readying an action to move out of the way of an arrow then you are effectively giving up your action to prepare a readied defensive action. Kinda like the parry rules of "Skull & Bones". It doesn't make sense to sacrifice an attack to parry when you only have one attack because you'll always be on the defense and never get to attack. Since you only ever have one move action if you always ready a move action to defend against a ranged attacker you'll never actually get your own attacks in (unless you too are equiped with a ranged weapon but if you step behind total cover you can't attack either). The battle will be going on around you and your character won't be contributing at all.

Just to clarify though... Readying to move behind cover is the ONLY action that I'd allow. Saying that an archer is shooting at a square and then moving to another square is NOT something I'd allow. Same thing with the Fireball... The defender could move behind cover by interrupting the Mage but if at the end of the defender's turn they are still in the open they then get the effect of the Fireball. Basically I'd allow them to move/take action prior to the attack roll being made or the saving throw being required. If they are still a vaild target then they get the whammy.

 

[Klaus]

This came up in a game this weekend. I was on horseback, and was being chased by a flying spellcaster. I was low on hitpoints and just wanted to make sure I could dodge the fireballs he was hurling from his wand. I told the GM I was going to spend my full action, or ready, or whatever was necessary to be able to get the horse to react to an incoming attack and move to avoid it.

My thought was, the mage would use his wand or cast some sort of spell, and I'd see where he's aiming, and then turn the horse to move some place else. The fireball would explode behind me, and I'd get that nice cinematic "fleeing while weapons hit all around you" scene as I made for cover.

The GM said I could ready an action to move when the mage attacked, and that sounded like a yes to me, so I did it. Then on the mage's turn, he shot a fireball, and I said, "Okay, where he aiming?"

The GM shook his head and said that my readied action was in response to him using the wand, and that there was no chance to respond to the actual fireball targeting. After a bit of arguing, the GM agreed to rewind time, saying that my character would have known that fireballs apparently travel at the speed of light or something and cannot be dodged. So I drank a potion instead, and ended up at 4 hit points after the fireball.



So, in your game, would it be possible to react to where a fireball is headed and move out of the way? Maybe still require a reflex save, but give the person evasion for the round?

Here's how I'd adjudicate it:

You ready a move action to move away from your position as far as you can get, as soon as the wizard activates the wand. When the wizard activates the wand, you move out of the fireball area of effect.

Of course, this trick will only work once with that wizard.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Personally If I am on a horse I'd either make the horse RUN either away from the wizard to hopefully get out of the maximum range of the spell, or (if that isn't possible) make the horse run to close the distance to the wizard so he might be in the spell's area of effect (this would be useful if the wizard states that the fireball will be CENTERED on me). If neither are possible then I'd be looking for cover to get some saving throw bonuses. Heck, I'd probably slide off the horse and use the horse for cover.

 

[Henry]

Now, if we're throwing in other conditions, like moving behind a wall, etc. then that WOULD work, because the order is (cast -> ready goes off -> spell finishes). A counterspell works the same way. (Cast -> ready for counterspell goes off -> spell finishes), but is spoiled. But just (cast -> ready moves you 25 feet -> spell finishes) wouldn't work, because the target is decided at spell's end - the wizard just moves the target 25 feet towards you.

 

[Blue]

Well, here are the events in my mind:

1. Wizard aims and fires
2. Fireball travels from wizard to target
3. Fireball reaches its target and explodes

I wanted to move after 1, before 3, since I figure it takes at least some amount of time for the fireball bead to travel, and that once the spell has been cast, it will travel to the target area chosen at step 1. The GM said that once the fireball is cast, there is no time to move. It goes from 1 to 3, with no 2 in the middle. Apparently the fireball can travel 400 ft. or more faster than a horse can move 40 ft.

By the RAW, you don't decide the targeting until the spell is cast, so technically you couldn't do anything.

But I agree - it has a beautiful movie feel, it SHOULD be allowed.

Things like this are why it's a tabletop game with a live DM. I'd could give a spot check (DC 10 + distance?) to notice where the wizard is pointing the wand. And it might get a lot harder once the wizard knows what you're trying to do.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)

 

[RangerWickett]

would you allow the same solution if the scenario was an archer shooting at you?

Yes. If you see someone shooting an arrow at you, there is a distinct amount of time it takes the arrow to reach you, so if all you do for the round is wait and prepare to dodge, I would let you move out of the flight path of the arrow after it was shot.

I think in this instance you should get a benefit that's better than the +4 AC from total defense. After all, you're not trying to defend against all attacks, but against just one single attack.

No. Thats what your reflex save represents.

Well, the point was, I was probably going to make the save (DC 15 vs. +11 Reflex save) and take half damage. But that half damage was going to knock me out most likely. So a bonus to my save would not help. I wanted a chance to turn it from half damage to no damage on a successful save. And there was about as no cover available (not that cover would help, because fireball just goes around cover).

If it were flame strike, I wouldn't have a problem with the ruling, because that spell creates a pillar of fire right where you target it. But fireball explicitly says that the spell travels from you to the target, and that it can hit things along the way.

If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a (fire)ball.

By the RAW, you don't decide the targeting until the spell is cast, so technically you couldn't do anything.

I did want to respond to the completion of the spell's casting, at which point (rules aside) I should have a second or two to move from where the spell is aimed.

The arguments against it seem to come down to

a) it sets a bad precedent that you can just avoid enemy spells, or
b) fireballs explode immediately after the spell is cast

I can accept A, but B doesn't mesh with how I view the spell working.

 

[el-remmen]

I moved this to the Rules forum.