Should you be able to use 'bonus saves' to help folks get out of 'end of turn' stuff?

[RangerWickett]

It strikes my group as a tad irksome that if they are hit with a devastating attack that dazes them until they save, their buddies can shake them out of it by granting a save. But if they're hit by a more minor effect that only dazes until the end of the monster's next turn, there's absolutely no way to break out.

Does anyone else play that bonus saves can let people break out of effects with a set duration, even if they don't normally offer a 'save ends' option?

 

[Markn]

It is one of the stranger rule designs in 4e to be sure. I think the designers firmly believe that condition save ends is supposed to be worse than condition until end of next turn (whether its yours or the monsters) but in reality its the other way around quite often.

Having said that, I wouldn't allow a save. By epic tier, saves are thrown around like water. I think it would nerf the monsters a bit too much.

 

[Shin Okada]

As Markn says. Sometimes being missed by an attack gives you worse effect.

Personally, I do not allow someone to shake-off "Until someone's turn" effect, mainly because applying such house-rule may open quite a big can of worms.

At least, there are some countermeasures against those conditions, such as Virtue's Touch Paladin class feature from Divine Power.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

When I next run a 4e game, I'm going to allow saves for "until end of next turn" effects, allowing them to be cancelled earlier than by RAW. As long as the rule applies to both PCs and monsters, I don't think there should be too many problems.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It seems counterintuitive not to allow saves...

 

[mmaranda]

I wouldn't allow save to shake off affects that last until end of <Something's> next turn.

1) PCs have more ways of granting friends saves than monsters do

2) If the affect is on a monster's basic attack and it happens during the PCs turn because of a opportunity attack, the PC could save against the affect at the end of his turn possibly completely nerfing the monster's power.

3) An attack that has a save ends affect or until end of next turn is a strategic choice. If you know it will last at least one full round then allies can build on it. If that expectation suddenly disapears because of a granted save it could ruin something the PCs or monsters were attempting to establish. (Remember an ally can grant a save with a DC 15 heal check)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

its is not about the regular save... we had discussions about it...

the question is:

should you allow an ally to make a heal check to grant a save against a condition that usually ends at the end of turn... i.e.: should you be able to help your ally out of all conditions even if no save is explicitely mentioned?

 

[Nifft]

You can't make a save against a condition which doesn't allow a save. Yeah, this means (save ends) generally sucks. Them's the breaks.


My only save-related house rule is: bonus saves never make things worse. They don't speed up your petrification, for example.

I wouldn't allow save to shake off affects that last until end of <Something's> next turn.

You're hurting most PCs and several monsters.

Cheers, -- N

 

[keterys]

My only save-related house rule is: bonus saves never make things worse. They don't speed up your petrification, for example.

Heh, that was my first house rule and first errata request, before the game was even published.

I was pretty happy when Player's Handbook 2 came out a year and change ago and made it official... so, not a house rule anymore.

 

[Aulirophile]

My only save-related house rule is: bonus saves never make things worse. They don't speed up your petrification, for example.

That isn't a house-rule, PHB2 page 219 IIRC.